# Work emails banned after 6pm (in France). You think we need the same in US? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 11, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835 "2014-04-11T00:39:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/101 "2014-04-12T16:45:26Z")
No, the US doesn’t need a dumb rule like this. If the goal is to make sure employers don’t abuse employees regarding after hours work time, then make a rule about after hours on-call type work being spelled out in employment contract. But making a “one size fits all” rule like this is just plain dumb because there are many situations where both employee and employer are just fine with it. I’ve worked in the computer industry my entire career, I’ve taken my share of after hours calls, but guess what, I’m ok with it and I manage it and I get paid well for it. It doesn’t happen that often, but when it does the impact to the business can be very significant and as a person that enjoys the benefits of that business (salary, bonuses, etc.), I don’t want anyone telling us when we can communicate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/102 "2014-04-12T16:48:23Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And when you get in trouble for doing that? Life’s a bitch. If your company doesn’t allow you to turn things off after hours, work somewhere else or become hourly. You’re salaried specifically because you are not expected to punch a clock. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/103 "2014-04-12T17:20:18Z")
That’s exactly the attitude that will lead us back to serfdom. No thank you. The labor market must have bargaining power. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/104 "2014-04-12T17:42:33Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Well, of course we both have other commitments and we’ve both set our lives around what we want: I had a toddler, and when he was born my husband quit his job to stay home because we both understood that I was the one that loved what I did, and I really didn’t want to have to always feel torn: I can only work the hours I work because I have a good system in place. But that’s not a coincidence: I married a man that understands me, delayed childbearing for 10 years, etc., etc to make this work. Yes, I am paying a price but I love my life. The guy next to me has a lot more time with his son, a lot more time for hobbies, etc. He’s paying the price in career advancement. He loves his life. That’s what he wants to do. I guess that while I see is this law assumes that his choice is better than mine, and deserves to be protected, or that my boss is being unfair when she favors me in all sorts of things. And I even understand that idea: no one should be punished for their commitment to their family. But fuck. I love my job. I love my life. Why shouldn’t my hard work, skill, and dedication translate into me being in a position to better shape and control that life? I AM paying the price, gladly–why shouldn’t I get the benefits? You didn’t mention this stuff before when you were talking about > [@](#): > > I work a pretty solid 65 hour week as a teacher. The guy next to me works 40. Period. And I’m a much better teacher for it … so it seemed pertinent to ask. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/105 "2014-04-12T17:44:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So if some sort of emergency happens in my place of business that could cost me a shitload of money overnight and I desperately need the services of a given employee who’s an expert in the field where the problem is, I guess I’m just supposed to suck it up and take the loss because it would be rude to send him a text at dinnertime? > > What a ridiculous and arbitrary rule. Back when my dad started a job – the last job in his long career as an engineer – he was given a pager on his first day. That evening he dropped it in a drawer and never looked at it again. As he put it, only a life-and-death emergency would necessitate calling him after hours, and since he wasn’t a doctor there wasn’t anything he could do in such a situation anyway. Anything else could wait till the next business day. He kept that job until he retired, on a date of his choosing. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/106 "2014-04-12T17:47:22Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > You didn’t mention this stuff before when you were talking about > > … so it seemed pertinent to ask. How so? I really don’t get your point. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/107 "2014-04-12T17:49:15Z")
It’s simple. If your boss is reasonable and takes care of you (financially and emotionally), then you don’t mind going out of your way to read e-mails after work. Knowing that he or she appreciates it, it’s not a big deal. So the real question is: do we let the multitude of bad apples spoil the whole bunch? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/108 "2014-04-12T18:01:49Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > … I guess that at the end of the day I don’t think I am wrong for working 65 hours, but I don’t think he’s wrong for working 40, and I don’t think my boss is wrong for rewarding my choices and basically staying neutral on his. But it’s complicated. It doesn’t sound like you boss is calling you at dinner-time to ask for a report first thing in the morning; it sounds like you are committed to your profession. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/109 "2014-04-12T18:23:01Z")
> [@j666](#): > > It doesn’t sound like you boss is calling you at dinner-time to ask for a report first thing in the morning; it sounds like you are committed to your profession. I guess I am not seeing the difference. My boss emails me after six sometimes, or (more often) we sit at work and talk about work stuff well after six. She doesn’t “expect it” in the sense that she will fire me if I don’t, but I get a lot of special consideration because of what, to me, looks like “dedication”. However, I can really see how the guy who works 40 hours a week sees it more like “punishment” for having reasonable boundaries: because he’s not willing to do stuff like that, he’s given less control over his job, he makes significantly less money (probably in the 10-15% range) and he will be a lot less protected if we have a cycle of lay-offs. I am just not sure how one fairly reconciles that contradiction. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/110 "2014-04-12T18:26:31Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That’s exactly the attitude that will lead us back to serfdom. No thank you. The labor market must have bargaining power. Quitting a job you hate and getting one more to your liking is serfdom? Wow, I didn’t know those peasants in the Middle Ages had it so good! ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/111 "2014-04-12T22:02:28Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I guess I am not seeing the difference. My boss emails me after six sometimes, or (more often) we sit at work and talk about work stuff well after six. She doesn’t “expect it” in the sense that she will fire me if I don’t, but I get a lot of special consideration because of what, to me, looks like “dedication”. However, I can really see how the guy who works 40 hours a week sees it more like “punishment” for having reasonable boundaries: because he’s not willing to do stuff like that, he’s given less control over his job, he makes significantly less money (probably in the 10-15% range) and he will be a lot less protected if we have a cycle of lay-offs. I am just not sure how one fairly reconciles that contradiction. I think the difference is very clear; it’s about what one chooses to do and what one is threatened and brow-beaten into doing. You and your co-worker have both made choices based on your priorities, but neither of you lost a job. For some people the choice is to put up with unreasonable demands on their time (typically for bullshit flash projects of no real value) or joblessness. Not for failing to respond to an emergency, but for complaining about being assigned work at eight o’clock at night, on a valueless project designed only to stroke your boss’s ego, not because of any sudden change in the situation, but only because it was poorly planned, or because someone with a little more favor decided not to finish it. We don’t all live in a world with pleasant chats with our bosses. Not by a long damned shot. I do envy you a job where the higher-paid staff are not laid-off first, though. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/112 "2014-04-12T22:13:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Quitting a job you hate and getting one more to your liking is serfdom? Wow, I didn’t know those peasants in the Middle Ages had it so good! If you don’t think that employers will gradually change the entire market to remove your options one by one then you’re dreaming. If your choice is between acceding to demands that you work around the clock in order to stay in your profession or living your life in minimum wage retail to get your own time to yourself then that’s no choice at all. The employment market is not a free market for employees and pretending that it is will so nothing but facilitate the race to the bottom for employment conditions. Employers hold too many cards as it is. They need to be kept in check by every means at our disposal, including employment law, union representation, and social disapproval. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/113 "2014-04-13T00:07:26Z")
well, yes, obviously ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/114 "2014-04-13T03:09:44Z")
Not sure if anybody has mentioned this yet in this thread: Don’t believe everything you read on the Intertubez. France didn’t exactly pass any law banning work e-mails after 6:00 p.m. [France didn’t ban people from checking work e-mail after 6. This is why it should have.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/style-blog/wp/2014/04/11/france-didnt-ban-people-from-checking-work-e-mail-after-6-this-is-why-it-should-have/) by Caitlin Dewey, Washington Post, April 11, 2014. > [@](#): > > Much to the Internet’s disappointment, France [did not in fact](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/style-blog/wp/2014/04/11/what-was-fake-on-the-internet-this-week-twitter-infidelity-french-e-mail-bans-and-nypd-dance-battles/) make it illegal to send work e-mails after 6 — despite many reports au contraire. (The reports stemmed from an agreement made between labor unions and a federation of engineering and consulting companies, affecting 250,000 people and involving no official laws.) Perhaps the online frenzy around the news, however, and our widespread willingness to believe it, suggests a more important truth about e-mail, connectedness and productivity: France didn’t ban off-hours e-mails … but it should. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/115 "2014-04-13T04:08:29Z")
The rights of workers in this new digital age is just now coming to the forefront. It may even take a few more years before enough people get fed up and demand a change. For now, we just have to put up with after hours email and hope that we have a decent boss. One that doesn’t expect you to drop everything and spend the night on your new project assignment. I don’t object to after hours email if I can deal with whatever it is the next morning. For example, my boss might email me that a staff member’s pc has a virus. I’ll see that in the subject header and won’t bother reading it until the next morning. Fixing that pc will be my top priority the next morning. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/116 "2014-04-13T04:21:42Z")
btw, I’m not referring to a broad law. I think this thread shows the problems with that approach. It’ll have to be some polices set by the Dept of Labor. Something an employee can use if they file a complaint about their employer’s work conditions. Those kinds of policies already exist. A homeless guy craps on the sidewalk by the building’s front door. A boss can’t tell his secretary to get some paper towels and pick it up. There are basic guidelines of what can and can’t be asked of an employee. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/117 "2014-04-13T07:44:07Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I love this idea! What it does is give the employee a valid reason to shut off his work phone at 6pm. No more passive aggressive bullshit from the boss. > > Boss "I emailed you yesterday evening, didn’t you read it? you really need to stay in touch and connected to our office. > > Employee, "I’m so sorry, I was at the hospital watching my wife give birth to our daughter. Please forgive me. I won’t miss another email. " what if your daughter died in the emergency room because they couldn’t get hold of the specialist to save her? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/118 "2014-04-13T11:48:38Z")
If the normal functions of my job ever include tasks necessary to save a person’s life, daughter or son, I cheerfully will read emails after 6:00 p.m. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/119 "2014-04-13T22:55:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > what if your daughter died in the emergency room because they couldn’t get hold of the specialist to save her? I would expect the doctors or police or whoever to notify me during normal business hours. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/120 "2014-04-14T18:23:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Answering the phone is “work”? The idea that I would have to pay an employee for the privilege of being able to talk to them is ridiculous. > > When I did that it was because I was either genuinely concerned about the employee’s well-being or because I had a critical issue that couldn’t wait until that person’s next day at work. If I had an employee who was actively avoiding communication, the message that gives me is that they don’t put much priority on their work and they must not be very interested in getting better hours or a higherpaying position. If I had a full-time position to fill, you can bet I’m going to consider the person who’s willing to put in the extra effort over the person who never answers the phone when we need help. Proof that my post was right. Work for free or don’t get the promotion. I’m curious what Smapti would do if I were in the mountains and didn’t get the message until late Sunday? Is the expectation that I need to be able to get to the office part of the arrangement? And Smapti’s post shows why we need the law. Yes, if you call me on my time to discuss work issues even if it’s “Where’s the light switch in the file room?” then I am working. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835.md?page=7)