# Work emails banned after 6pm (in France). You think we need the same in US? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 11, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835 "2014-04-11T00:39:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/141 "2014-04-15T17:29:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I used to show up at my employees’ houses when I needed to talk to them and they weren’t answering the phone. I take it you lived in an area that didn’t have “Stand Your Ground” laws. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/142 "2014-04-15T19:35:33Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > The idea is dumb. The idea as law is even dumber. No doubt there are specific situations between employer and employees where this might be workable, but the US lives and works in multiple time zones, in addition to international business. There are multiple shift work situations (sometimes to deal with the time zones, other times to deal with providing services to the multitude of ~9-~5 customers). What happen if someone decides they actually would prefer to work late. Several times I’d be working early in the AM because I couldn’t sleep, and I’d send out information to tee up for the next day, and I’d get a response from someone in the same position (and sometimes I’d be the one responding, even though a 3AM response wasn’t required nor expected). In a reasonable world, there would be compensation for that extra time either monetarily like $300,000 per year for 60 hours of work per week or comp time so that when I work this Saturday for 4 hours I can take Thursday afternoon off to take my kid to the doctor. But then you have bosses that think like Smapti who feel he gets to determine what is convenient for you to do him a solid on your time. Take the case of Mrs. Cad. She was in the middle of a project at work. While a main player, there were enough people that being away for a couple days and being in contact by phone would not have affected the project at all. She had a major professional and personal event to attend - like once in a lifetime could not be repeated event. She got the vacation time approved and everyone was cool with her going as long as she could be reached by phone. 24 hours before she left, the project manager fucked up, called the client based on faulty information because he didn’t take 15 minutes to check his info (BTW not an emergency as in Holy Fucktarts! We need to deal with this right FUCKING now!!) Because of this, Big Bossman (not from Cobb County, GA) cancelled her vacation because it was all-hands-on-deck to deal with the crisis Little Bossman caused. For three days she did absolutely nothing she couldn’t do via phone. The upshot is they cancelled her vacation knowing how important it was to her because it wasn’t important to THEM. They promised they would make it up to her and they never did - not only missing a once in a lifetime opportunity but being close to the end of the year she never got to take her vacation time. Oh and Sampti, the big promotion that she was pushing for? The one that everyone agreed she’d be perfect for. Some HUGE Bossman decided to hire one of his buddies from the outside to do it so where did her dedication put her? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/143 "2014-04-15T19:55:27Z")
I worked in the (mostly) reasonable world before going the entrepreneur route. I’ve also seen stupid shit happen like you described, sometimes simply because some Big Bossman is a dick who likes to flex his ‘muscle’ just to let everyone know he’s Big Bossman. People suck. Stupid laws will not make them suck less, just suck in different ways. Just to be sure I’m clear, the French model in which this is an agreement between employer and employee (or union and management or whatever) is fine. That’s two parties coming to what is hopefully a mutually beneficial agreement. Trying to make a law that says the workday only occurs between 8am and 6pm (except for these 1,259,675 exemptions) is the dumb idea. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/144 "2014-04-16T01:10:47Z")
> [@alexandra](#): > > :rolleyes: Laws protecting workers always incorporate emergency situations and indeed in Britain healthcare employees are often paid to be on call. > > Unlike the thousands of office-based workers, who just _have_ to check their phones at 11pm to see if their report detailing what they have been doing for the last few days went down okay with their manager. And why do they do that? _ **Why?** _ The Boss doesn’t read that report until 15 minutes before s/he uses the information for an upchain presentation. Then s/he hovers one you, demanding a half hour of revisions that could have been made in the very first draft you sent three days earlier. > [@Smapti](#): > > No, you’re doing a simple common courtesy. Are you such a mercenary that you demand to be paid for the imposition of answering a simple question for another human being who needs your help? When the need for help is the result of nothing but poor planning on the part of management? Hell, yes. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/145 "2014-04-16T01:53:02Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > If the boss cannot email or phone the employee, then what else is he going to do? Pay the employee double or triple time for work expected after hours. Make the selfish fuckers pay for their greed and/or managerial incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/146 "2014-04-16T02:33:54Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So what generous courtesies do you extend your employees? I treat my employees with respect. If they have a family emergency or something and can’t come in, I help them cover their shifts. If their car breaks down, I’ve been willing to pick them up/drop them off. If they have a problem they can’t solve on their own, I’m always willing to give them a hand, because I want the business to succeed so I have a job and get paid and so my employees can have jobs and get paid. You get a lot better results treating your co-workers as partners than as enemies. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/147 "2014-04-16T02:41:17Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So Ana, Bill and I have information you need. Let’s say no one knew you needed this information before Saturday. You call the three of us and it would take about 15-20 minutes to hunt up the information you need. > > Ana finds the information after 30 minutes of looking. > Bill is on vacation out of cell coverage so he doesn’t get your message. > I am getting ready to go to my son’s game and so I decide not to get you the information. > > Promotion comes up at work. Does the above scenario have any impact on whom you pick? Yes, just like it would for any sensible employer. You promote the person who shows loyalty to the business and will help the business succeed. Why would anyone ever reward someone for NOT working hard? And no, I didn’t say “working for free”. If I asked someone to do 30 minutes worth of work, I’d pay them for 30 minutes of their time. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/148 "2014-04-16T02:51:33Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Take the case of Mrs. Cad. She was in the middle of a project at work. While a main player, there were enough people that being away for a couple days and being in contact by phone would not have affected the project at all. She had a major professional and personal event to attend - like once in a lifetime could not be repeated event. She got the vacation time approved and everyone was cool with her going as long as she could be reached by phone. 24 hours before she left, the project manager fucked up, called the client based on faulty information because he didn’t take 15 minutes to check his info (BTW not an emergency as in Holy Fucktarts! We need to deal with this right FUCKING now!!) Because of this, Big Bossman (not from Cobb County, GA) cancelled her vacation because it was all-hands-on-deck to deal with the crisis Little Bossman caused. For three days she did absolutely nothing she couldn’t do via phone. The upshot is they cancelled her vacation knowing how important it was to her because it wasn’t important to THEM. They promised they would make it up to her and they never did - not only missing a once in a lifetime opportunity but being close to the end of the year she never got to take her vacation time. Oh and Sampti, the big promotion that she was pushing for? The one that everyone agreed she’d be perfect for. Some HUGE Bossman decided to hire one of his buddies from the outside to do it so where did her dedication put her? That’s an interesting story, but I don’t see how banning phone calls after 6 PM would have changed the outcome at all, and I don’t see why my ability to do business needs to be hamstrung because someone else’s boss screwed up. (And for the record, I never once cancelled anyone’s vacation or brought in external hires over a qualified internal candidate.) ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/149 "2014-04-16T02:57:31Z")
6pm in France is between 9am and noon in the US. Everyone would have to send their emails early in the day. I don’t see how this could work. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/150 "2014-04-16T03:42:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That’s an interesting story, but I don’t see how banning phone calls after 6 PM would have changed the outcome at all, and I don’t see why my ability to do business needs to be hamstrung because someone else’s boss screwed up. > > (And for the record, I never once cancelled anyone’s vacation or brought in external hires over a qualified internal candidate.) Because it shows that many bosses have priorities other than their employees so your interpretation that asking for them to work on the weekend may be seen as relatively minor to YOU but a major inconvenience to THEM. Yet you give them the choice to be majorly inconvenienced on their own time or be thought of as not dedicated to their job. And if they choose to be inconvenienced, where is their guaranty that they are rewarded for it? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/151 "2014-04-16T04:50:38Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Because it shows that many bosses have priorities other than their employees so your interpretation that asking for them to work on the weekend may be seen as relatively minor to YOU but a major inconvenience to THEM. Yet you give them the choice to be majorly inconvenienced on their own time or be thought of as not dedicated to their job. And if they choose to be inconvenienced, where is their guaranty that they are rewarded for it? They get paid, for one. I’m offering them an opportunity to make more money this week than they would have otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/152 "2014-04-16T04:58:00Z")
> [@FordPrefect](#): > > Pay the employee double or triple time for work expected after hours. Make the selfish fuckers pay for their greed and/or managerial incompetence. Emergencies happen. People get sick. People have family emergencies, or their car breaks down, or can’t make it to work for whatever reason. Is an inability to predict the future “managerial incompetence”? I’m completely onboard with paying people extra when they have to work excessive hours, of course. A system of _pay_ for _time_ which is _over_ the norm. I wonder what you’d call such a thing… ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/153 "2014-04-16T05:09:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > They get paid, for one. I’m offering them an opportunity to make more money this week than they would have otherwise. But that’s not all. You giving them the option to earn money AND be thought of as dedicated to their job or no extra money AND being thought of as a slacker. It’s that last part that you fail to see. You are penalizing (as opposed to simply not rewarding) your workers that give up their free time. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/154 "2014-04-16T07:05:23Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > But that’s not all. You giving them the option to earn money AND be thought of as dedicated to their job or no extra money AND being thought of as a slacker. It’s that last part that you fail to see. You are penalizing (as opposed to simply not rewarding) your workers that give up their free time. I don’t see why that’s a problem. You reward the people who will best promote the health of the business. If someone’s not willing to go the extra mile at the level they’re at, why would I assume that they’d go the extra mile when given a promotion? If I was promoting an entry-level person to a supervisory position, why would I promote someone if I had no confidence that they’d be able to come in on short notice if another supervisor was MIA? If I was looking at promoting someone from an hourly position to a salaried position, why would I promote the person who turns off their phone the second they leave the premises and makes a habit of being completely unreachable? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/155 "2014-04-16T07:29:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t see why that’s a problem. You reward the people who will best promote the health of the business. If someone’s not willing to go the extra mile at the level they’re at, why would I assume that they’d go the extra mile when given a promotion? If I was promoting an entry-level person to a supervisory position, why would I promote someone if I had no confidence that they’d be able to come in on short notice if another supervisor was MIA? If I was looking at promoting someone from an hourly position to a salaried position, why would I promote the person who turns off their phone the second they leave the premises and makes a habit of being completely unreachable? The problem is that this entire culture of being constantly reachable for work is, in many cases, abusive. You say you pay your workers for time on the phone/time working in their spare time. Good for you! More bosses should do that. (That last sentence should be a big fat red flag.) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/156 "2014-04-16T13:35:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t see why that’s a problem. You reward the people who will best promote the health of the business. If someone’s not willing to go the extra mile at the level they’re at, why would I assume that they’d go the extra mile when given a promotion? If I was promoting an entry-level person to a supervisory position, why would I promote someone if I had no confidence that they’d be able to come in on short notice if another supervisor was MIA? If I was looking at promoting someone from an hourly position to a salaried position, why would I promote the person who turns off their phone the second they leave the premises and makes a habit of being completely unreachable? I agree for the most part. The problem, as I read it, is that people want to compete for limited resources (jobs, promotions, raises) on their own terms. Once someone steps out of those terms, if they are unwilling to match those terms, they’d rather restrict the the terms where they can compete. If I’m willing to work until 10pm to get ahead, but someone else values their free/family time more, change the rules to penalize my drive. A _totally_ separate issue is bad bosses/managers. They exist in abundance, no doubt. You have control freaks, megalomaniacs, micro-managers, nepotistic despots, etc. Sometimes they’re not a bad person, just a type AAA who can’t wrap his/her mind around why everyone else isn’t like them. Changing the rules will not correct these traits. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/157 "2014-04-16T14:08:43Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > 6pm in France is between 9am and noon in the US. Everyone would have to send their emails early in the day. I don’t see how this could work. It’s crazy isn’t it! It’s not like there’s another day tomorrow or that people coped before email. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/158 "2014-04-16T14:11:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > They get paid, for one. I’m offering them an opportunity to make more money this week than they would have otherwise. Kudos on that: every boss I’ve had who would expect us to be on call 24-7 would also never pay overtime, give comp time, or let you take a day off unless you had a doctor’s appointment beforehand and a doctor’s certification later. If the two doctors happened to be different (the usual one being on vacation or whatever, so you were seen by someone else) they’d also require a note from the healthcare center explaining that Doctor A was off so Doctor B was handling his patients. Ever heard “dying requires two weeks’ advance warning”? That kind of guys. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/159 "2014-04-16T14:16:24Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > It’s crazy isn’t it! It’s not like there’s another day tomorrow or that people coped before email. People coped before cars, telephones, telegraph, railroads, etc. Perhaps we should restrict all of these to only be used during ‘business hours’. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835/160 "2014-04-16T15:56:14Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > People coped before cars, telephones, telegraph, railroads, etc. Perhaps we should restrict all of these to only be used during ‘business hours’. Many companies which provide company vehicles restrict their use outside business hours: some allow personal use, some let you use a company car to travel between your home and workplace, how many expect employees to take their 18-wheeler home and use it to do their shopping? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-emails-banned-after-6pm-in-france-you-think-we-need-the-same-in-us/685835.md?page=9)