What? You mean in the sense that it takes up most of your productive time?
I used to do so; now I’m somewhat demoralized, so I waste time posting on the Straight Dope.
mack:
Both extremes. Underappreciation before you make it, and ass-kissing once you do. There’s also a million emotions in between.
deb2world:
No, a compliment is “You look nice today” and makes me feel good. “Done? Now take this other (really big boring) task and get it done.” is more work and does not feel good. Posting to SDMB for cash . . . now that feels good.
I disagree. The investment bankers I know work ridiculous hours (like you say msmith537) and have alot of arguments about that with their family. The Bank couldn’t give a crap. “If you can’t take the hours find another job” is the more likely attitude. And this bank DEFINATELY wants to make money.
Bill H:
Agreed. How hard will I work? The minimum REQUIRED. So I am still meeting this pact
Not stealing. And I haven’t had one figure out I’m a slacker yet. I convince them my abilities are below what they actually are, and they assign me work based on what they THINK I can handle. Works out real nice.
msmith:
I’ve been with the same company for 6 years now. Positions like mine survive through all of the mergers and layoffs. Every time a position has been scrapped, there has always been another waiting somewhere else (ususally on the same floor!). I started in a high demand section doing a really great job. I got taken advantage of and I hated that. So I have moved to a lower demand department a couple times. Now, I get all the work done, and when it’s done it is satisfactory. But I be sure to spread as little work over as much time as possible. the kicker? I keep getting raises every time I switch departments.
I agree with you about certain positions. If I wanted to be a Managing Director some day, or a lawyer, this strategy would hurt me. Good thing I could care less about those goals. Art is what is important to me, and not this mega-corporation (or it’s hierarchy) that could care less about me. I just want to get through the work hours as quickly and painlesly as possible so I can get to some work that IS important to me.
DaLovin’ Dj
[hijack]Well, let’s talk about the work that is important to you. I know you’re in NYC, and so am I. So where and what do you spin?[/hijack]
maeglin:
I spin at a couple different places. I did a sweet reggae part on Saturday at “Tobacco Road” (used to be the Savoy) which we (me and my manager) do every month. My next gig is Tuesday night (tomorrow) at the Alphabet Lounge on 7th and B. It’s called the “Independent Music Explosion” (IME) has about 10 different bands. I spin at the beginning, end, and betweeen every band.
What do I spin? Well, if it’s up to me (pure), I play Reggae and Hip-Hop with a little funk thrown in. Sometimes, I get asked to play particular kinds of music for certain parties (weddings, birthdays) and they want it toned down. For these cases I can bust out rock, swing, and tons of catchy pop tunes. That aint what I love about spinning, but I gotta come up with the dough for the records so I do it. No matter what, if they are dancing I enjoy it.
If your interested I can put you on our e-mail list for notification of upcoming gigs.
DaLovin’Dj
Although I don’t entirely agree with dalovindj, he does have a point. An exaggerated one, perhaps, but its there.
I work in a corporate environment that isn’t much different from the one described in the OP. The reward for hard work is harder work. I once had to console a secretary who was in tears because every time she met the demands of her boss, the demands increased, to the point where she felt helplessly overloaded. Promotions are given solely on the basis of what degrees one holds, and how well one can kiss ass.
When we design electronics, pumps, tanks, gears, motors, etc., we derate components so that they are guaranteed not to breakdown, suffer fatige, blow up or otherwise wear out. Not so with the employees. We are constantly operated at 110%, and frequently pushed to deliver more. If for some reason one can’t deliver that level of performance any longer, due to physical or mental illness, they find an excuse to replace him.
So the wise engineers learn to pad their estimates, to take their time on certain tasks so that they aren’t rushed next time, and, on occasion, to not meet deadlines. I’m not talking about habitual malingering, but management of management. Cause if you don’t, they’ll run you into the ground.
And this logic doesn’t apply in all jobs. I wouldn’t recommend this for anyone who works in a true meritocracy, but for salaried office workers stuck in a place where the status quo is management by personality, it’s a means of survival.
My advice to that secretary in the second paragraph? Fail at one or two of the tasks. Prioritize based on your best knowledge and let the piddly stuff go undone. If confronted, tell him it was too much to do all at once. The boss will recognize that he’s reached your limit and stop dumping more and more stuff on you.
This is what most people who preach about “work ethic” fail to understand. I learned this lesson early on, and swore that the only loyalty or obligation I would ever feel is to people, not companies.
Finally, if you haven’t seen Office Space, dalovindj, you should go right out and rent it, now!
Just to play devils advocate, what about an employer who promises certain things (raises, promotions, more responsibility, etc) to get you to work for them and then doesn’t deliver?
I said management consultants know who is slacking and whos working. The I-bankers are probably too busy making multi million dollar deals to care about what you are doing. Still, you must be getting your job done otherwise you would be getting yelled at every day until you were fired.
Maeglin: Yes your job is a part of your identity whether you want it to be or not. When we spend that much time at something, it has an insidious way of creeping into our beings. We really have no choice but to be affected. We have bosses, the co-workers, and tasks that will change and mold us. Every job has and is a culture* and all cultures define who we are, as much as you want to protest that it doesn’t and that you are just there for 40 hours and draw a paycheck.
I think what you are objecting to is the stereotyping of job types, ie computer techs are geeks and wear glasses. But if I were to assume a computer tech is logical in thinking, I would be right more than I am wrong in that assumption. Are these stereotypes right? I say that they are perfectly ok. The job stereotyping is not a PC issue.
QuickSilver: You don’t understand my statement that being unemployed is a job. Well let me rationalize why I stated that and then you can disagree with me on those points. If you are unemployed you are
a) looking for a job–which is a job (requires time and effort) without a paycheck. It, hopefully, is a temporary job.
b) not looking for a job which can mean you are staying at home for the good of the family (ie homemakers and that includes men). Or it can mean you are sponging off of others. That in itself is work, i.e. standing on the streetcorner is your job (requires time and effort). Both of these define who you are since they are part of your own created culture.
Dalonvindj: A compliment comes in many forms and makes us feel good about outselves. Maybe I should have prefaced that with I find that more and more work is a compliment. Yes it is a backhanded compliment, but I enjoy getting tasks with more challenging work.
*culture may not be the best word, but it is the one that came to mind.
Morally – you should so something for the money.
Economically – if they don’t check your productivity and reward you accordingly then its tough on them, this should result in them being less efficient than an organisation that does.
Realistically – the world is not fair and your bosses would screw you over if they thought it was a good thing to do and don’t care about your personal goals only their goals.
An ideal employee is very productive and does not ask for the money they are worth, instead choosing to become an underpaid workaholic while the boss enjoys the excess profit down the golf course.
Mmmmmm
Correction: Alphabet Lounge is on 7th Street and Avenue C.
bughunter:
Alot of folks have mentioned that flick to me. I’ll have to check it out.
deb2world:
I agree with the idea of work as a cuulture. In the culture I am in, hard work is rewarded with more hard work (to use bughunter’s phrase). Also, the people who request and arrange the temp jobs are the other people at my level. I ally myself with them and I have always been able to parlay those relationships into more work. I achieve this alliance by relating to them about the negative aspects of the job and by sharing stories of our lives outside of work. So even if my manager is mad at me, the people giving me my next job have empathy becuase they’ve all been yelled at one time another as well. It is a culture I’ve learned to manipulate to my advantage. I have no quams or guilt about it.
One more point. I show up to work every day on time. I do all of the work I get assigned. As described, I do not do the best job possible. However, this is better than a large percentage of the workers out there. Alot of them tend to not show up all the time. Or on time. Ot they are just grossly incompetent. This point was illustrated to humorous effect on “The Murphy Brown Show” starring Candice Bergen as a reporter who went through a new assistant every week. So, even if I am not the best person for the job, the company ends up in a position of “The enemy you know is better than the one you don’t know”. Nothing quite like corporate culture, heh?
DaLovin’ Dj
Let me just say that, dalovindj, I could not agree with you more. I am currently in a situation similar to yours. We are a proud and indistinguishable mass. I assume you know the secret handshake?
Maeglin: I feel the same way. My job is my job; it’s a means to an end. I refuse to let this define me.
I am Fred Flintstone at the end of the day, sliding down the dino-crane… “Yabba Dabba Dooooooooooo!” Get me the hell out of here, time to live my life.
Many people ask themselves the defining question:
Am I a person with a job… or am I a worker with a life?
This is the distinction. What comes first? Do you live to be at work, or live to be away from work? Surely some people have it both ways (I’m jealous of you, BTW).
But, getting back on track, I’ve found that the people who give it all they’ve got have something to gain by doing so.
Those who break their back for indifferent managers end up burned out, bitter, or disillusioned.
I assume you have some modicum of proof or analysis for this, deb2world. You are merely repeating what you asserted earlier, this time in an even more uncompromising way.
My job may take my time. It may take my effort. But I will be damned if I am going to give my bosses my mind or my life. I don’t have to let work into my inner life if I am especially vigilant. I have also worked several jobs, none longer than one year. This has also helped to minimize the assimilation of my inner life.
I know the feeling, Acco40. For all intents and purposes, my job is fine. But it certainly is not who I am and does not lead to my self-fulfillment in any way. It’s money. Money to pay my bills. Money to save for tuition when I go to grad school, a major step towards genuine fulfillment. Money to support my other serious interests which truly define me.
WMy job is something to do between the evenings and weekends.
dalovindj, do put me on your mailing list. My email address is in my profile.
MR
If you work for an investment bank the only thing your bosses care about is how much money you’ve made them (and the firm). That is the only criterion. There are numerous examples of serious alcoholic salesmen out there, that come in late, hungover, not at all, etc, and it doesn’t matter if they write the tickets. All the I-Banks I worked for, Swiss Bank Corp, Lehmans, Nikko, were extremely performance based. All bets are off if you work for a cost center because then you’re just a replaceable cog.
I was raised to do an honest days work. I still believe that even after being on the wrong side of several mergers and/or downsizing. I can’t help it, this is what I was ingrained with during my formulative years. When my manager hat is on, anyone not pulling their weight gets warned once then shunted out the door as fast as can be managed without inviting a wrongful termination suit.
I agree that we should be workers with a life. However, along with that, if you want to fast track your way into head of General Electric, you have to pay a high price that includes productive, insane hours. If you want the big bucks, you’ve got to deliver the goods yourself and not expect other people to carry your share.
Folks, and dalovindj specifically -
Do you really think this is all about the evil corporations or the abusive boss or even being defined by you job? Is that what many of you think to yourselves when you get up in the mornings before work? Do you view yourselves as unwilling chattel? Because that’s what it come down to. All I’ve heard is a lot of whining about the soul-less corporations and the slave driving bosses and how you can fool them by doing just enough to sneak under the radar.
First of all, you are not fooling anyone. Not anyone smart anyway (and there is no sport in fooling stupid people). Second of all, you are only discrediting yourselves. Every day that you go into a job that you hate to do just enough to squeek by you have wasted another opportunity to learn and grow as a person. If you are in a job that dishes out nothing but abuse without recognition then perhaps one of two things are actually happening… a) you are in the wrong job, or b) perhaps you are not doing anything deserving of recognition. And don’t kid yourselves for a minute, smart management accounts for the lowest common denominator and guages compensation accordingly. You are not getting anything out of them that they are not willing to part with.
More importantly, this is not about pleasing your boss or climbing the corporate ladder. This is about rising above mediocrity. This is about doing a job that you can be proud of and looking to expand your horizons and further your skills and knowledge. It’s a growth process and should be personally fulfilling. It shouldn’t be an endless daily grind (though some days can seem that way). If you show no pride or joy in doing your job well, then how can you expect anyone to appreciate your efforts?
Granted, sometimes despite your best efforts you will not be recognized by your superiors. That does not mean that your efforts are being wasted. It just means that your efforts are being wasted in that job. Find another one. One where you will be recognized and appreciated. It may take a while to find such a place through trial and error but they do exist. Also, don’t be surprised that you’re often financially rewarded each time you make that jump (even if it’s a latteral one).
But if mediocrity is your goal then by all means, dalovindj, sally forth.
do what george costanza did
always act like you are very busy and flustered and everyone will leave you alone and comment on what a conscientious, hard worker you are when in reality you are doing…nothing
Quicksilver, clearly you enjoy your career. Many of us aren’t so lucky (yet).
No, growth resumes at 5:31 EST each weekday, and all weekend. Woo Hoo!
OK. Let’s say for a minute I (and dalovindj) are in the wrong job. Are you implying that we, as slackers, should quit our current jobs and find out what color our parachutes are?
Or what about the people who have busted their ass, and time and time again not been recognized for it? That’s pretty damn disheartening. In fact, I currently have a manager who can’t appreciate the good job I’m doing, because she takes 3 hour lunches. Who the hell do I have to impress?
But taking it a step further, let’s say I did rock the boat, and bust my ass enough to get noticed by the Prez of the company. In effect, I’d be making enemies with my manager (by making her look bad) and she’d make my life a living hell. It’s all about the office politics. It takes an office politician to work nowadays.
I wholeheartedly disagree. It’s about collecting a paycheck so I can do what I truly want to do in my free time.
Quicksilver, a job should be fufilling. It should be interesting and challenging. But realistically for most people it’s not the case… there simply aren’t enough fun, great, interesting jobs out there.
How exactly are they not being wasted? That effort and time I’m giving away could be spent doing things I truly enjoy.
I’ll expand on an excellent point made by DoctorJearlier:
So, tell me… what’s my incentive for working harder than I have to?
While I respect those who have posted about mediocrity, identity, and efficiency, as another temp, I largely agree with Lamia, DaLovin’DJ, Acco40, and Maeglin.
There is a difference between a job and a career. DaLovin’DJ wants a career as a musician. I’m sure he works incredibly hard at it, practicing music, working late-night gigs and weddings, finding new tunes to spin, etc. I would like a career as a writer/filmmaker. So at night and in the morning and on the weekends I work on my writing, read screenplays and books, and save money so I can go to school next year, and do what I can. Maeglin wants to go to graduate school (right?), so he works to support that dream. Lamia is also a student.
During the week I work as a temp. I’m a damn good temp. I feel it’s my responsibility to do my assignments on time, smile, show up on time, stay late if I’m asked to, solve computer problems and arrange training for people who need it, etc. But being an office worker isn’t my career. I feel no need to overperform at it. If I have a slow day, which happens often, I don’t feel bad about checking personal email or reading the boards or going over the draft of what I wrote last night. And I think that’s what some of the “a job is just a job” folks are saying. We work incredibly hard in pursuit of our dreams, and our day jobs are just that: something to pay the bills.
I’m disgustingly educated, and prior to this past year, I had a “career” as a project manager and proposal writer. I worked 60-70 hour weeks for less than $35,000/year, travelled all over the world on short notice, obsessively edited and rechecked anything that came out of my shop, trained my staff on proposal writing, took on extra assignments, brought in at least $20,000,000 in new business to the company. Did it get me raises? No. Did it get me promoted? Yes, I got switched from an hourly to a salaried employee, ending up with less money at the end of the year. Basically it just got me more work, to the point that health and sanity suffered. But I didn’t care, because at the time I was in the career that I wanted to be in.
Of course more responsibility and more work are a compliment to career-minded individuals who wish to learn and advance within the company. People have mentioned law firms and consulting firms, who expect long hours and complete dedication as the bare minimum for employment, because usually by definition all the people within the firm are interested in moving up. It’s part of the unwritten pact that employees of those types of firms make with their employers.
Not everyone makes that kind of pact with their employers. Long hours, weekends, and mental dedication beyond completing the tasks I am asked to are not part of my pact with my employer.
In any work situation, from temping to investment banking, I think one is required to do the work, do it well, and do it in a reasonable amount of time. And I hope that people are able to find fulfilling careers that round out their identities and inspire them to achieve above and beyond. But sometimes it’s just a job, people.
Quicksilver, I think you have been reading too many management training handbooks. If I wanted to hear the same hackneyed employer-oriented philosophy, I would have read it in some Tom Peters pulp.
Yup. I am lucky to be in a job in which I am not abused in any way and treated with more than a modicum of respect. It’s a decent job, and it’s my living. But do I wake up every morning thinking about being defined by my job? You’re damned right I do. Am I unwilling chattel? It depends. I choose to live where I do in the lifestyle that pleases me. I choose to pursue those things which are meaningful and important to me. The day job is simply the price I pay. Hence my day to day existence may be somewhat unwilling, that fact that I am here is certainly pursuant to my will.
Spare yourself further indignity by discontinuing this line of analysis. In almost every job I have worked at, my direct supervisor or those whom I worked for most directly did not understand exactly what it is that I did. All they cared about was the product. If I delivered what they wanted on time, they had no clue what I was up to or how I was spending my time. They did not care about keeping my busy for its own sake, just as long as I did what was required and did it well.
Now my caseload is light. I am posting on the SDMB. No one cares. Hell, no one even knows.
That’s a rather results-oriented (to use a nauseating corporate term) way to describe intelligence.
A) You can’t fool smart people.
B) If the person is stupid, he will be fooled.
Ergo if a person is not fooled, he is smart.
Ho hum. We call this circular reasoning round these parts.
This is the corporate equivalent of the Big Lie. If they keep telling us that somehow the so-called “skills” we learn on the job help us to learn and grow as people, maybe we will actually believe it.
[n]How stupid do some companies believe labor is?**
I have no illusions that what I do at my current job, or at any of the jobs I have worked, has somehow contributed to my personal growth. Save, of course, my ability to knuckle down and do non self-indulgent, mind-numbing labor for hours on end. This is not, as it were, something to be proud of.
How exactly does work help us to learn and grow?
Huzzah, I learned a new macro in MS Word.
Super cool, now I know how not to piss off some of the people I work with.
Awesome, I know that my boss is really susceptible to flattery.
Real life skills. Uh huh.
How many people don’t think they’re in the wrong job? How many people don’t think there is a right job? And ultimately, since the bills have to be paid, does it really matter? I know I am in the wrong job. I have a great deal of trouble sitting at a desk all day in an office. It is not my terrain. I know there are many others like me.
Rising above mediocrity? Pride? These are things that are generally associated with creative, productive tasks. Tasks from which the laborers are not necessarily alienated. I produce nothing. Nothing at all. How does one distinguish between mediocrity and excellence when there is no product? As long as I don’t fuck my work up, it satisfies. There simply is nothing better than satisfactory.
Am I in the wrong job? Probably. But hey, when you don’t know where your next meal is coming from, the bullshit walks.
Which means that your efforts are being wasted. Come on, tell me you do not honestly believe this? If I spent hours writing and an editor tossed my manuscript down the toilet, my efforts were wasted. Categorically. Absolutely. Context-free.
I tried that. It annihilated my savings. Not gonna do it again. Some of us do not have the luxury to shop around, I’m afraid.
This ignores the bigger question: why should we aim at anything higher than mediocrity at work? I do all of my work well and generally behave professionally. My superiors are pleased with my product. This is wholly mediocre. Tell me, besides some vague promises of skills gained and personal development, why I should work any harder?
MR
There is an important distinction between a job and a career.
From what I can tell, magdalene, Lamia, DaLovinDJ, Acco40, and Maeglin have J-O-B jobs. That is no say: no oportunity for advancement, mundane tasks to complete, and professional managers who are really just babysitters. If I had a job like that (and I have) I’d put in the minimum amount of effort too.
On the other hand, Quicksilver, super_head and myself are career professionals. And from what I can tell, we also all happen to be some flavor of management consultant. The diference is that we work hard (although I sometimes slack on bad days as well) so that we can get ahead. At many firms in our profession, you have to work hard just to keep your job the following year.
The reward for us is that after a some years, we can make a shitload of money. We can also work for regular companies, but as a manager, director, or CEO.
Now, there has been a lot of talk about lifestyle. But do you want to hear something funny? Most of my peers at the Firm (yes we capitalize it) have as much, if not more of a life than my cooworkers did at GenericManufacturingCompany.inc. My coworkers socialize after work, they have hobbies, ski and shore houses, and some even have families. At my old job, people were too poor and bitter from working the same job 15 yrs to do anything other than go home after work and sit on the couch.
Why try and rise above mediocrity? It’s like the dumbasses in high school who thought the kids who studdied all the time were wasting their time. Five years later, those study nerds went off to college to good careers while the dumbasses still work in bowling allys and local bars.
The same is true when you are an adult. Temp jobs are fine right out of college, but at some point you are going to want to get married or buy a house. How much pride will you have when you’re in your late 30s and still eating microwave dinners in a run down 1-bedroom apartment?
In the end, we are all responsible for our own careers. You can blame your managers or the corporation or consultants or whoever, but it doesn’t matter. You are the only one who cares about your career so you better figure out how to advance in it.
msmith:
I agree with you that a distinction has to be made between the career and the job. That’s a good point.
For most of us, the latter leads to the former either directly or indirectly, eventually… or should I say ‘hopefully’?
Doubtlessly, I will feel differently in the future when I have more to gain for my efforts in a more productive job and I’m looking out for people other than myself. (I’m allowed to dream, aren’t I?)
Good luck dalovindj… save yourself from corporate madness!
Yours could become my vicarious life!