# Work permits for Mexicans
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [February 24, 2001, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760 "2001-02-24T21:08:24Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@berdollos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/berdollos)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2001, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/1 "2001-02-24T21:08:24Z")
Do you agree with el Presidente Vincente Fox of Mexico that we should institute work permits for Mexicans who wish to work in the U.S.?
They would not become U.S. citizens but would pay U.S. and other taxes, contribute to social security and go to public schools. They could cross the border freely.
One advantage: the many young Mexicans who need employment and the emerging inverted age pyramid in the U.S. with shortages of young workers projected as the boomers get old.
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### Author:  [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2001, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/2 "2001-02-24T22:08:15Z")
That Presidente sounds like a great leader. Instead of creating jobs in his own country, let his people get jobs somewhere else.
Any why Mexico? If this went through, wouldn’t people in Canada, or every other country, be allowed this same priviledge?
Not enough information, but it seems that politicians South of the Border are as fond as passing the peso as anyone up here…
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### Author:  [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2001, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/3 "2001-02-24T22:23:03Z")
Basically, it is a realization that many Mexicans who live on the border already work here as maids, dishwashers, etc., and this would merely help legitimize their status, and also allow us to collect taxes from them.
After all, we already allow capital and goods to flow freely across the border (NAFTA), why not labor as well?
As for not creating jobs in his own country, Mexico already had a lot of nice middle class jobs available. Unfortunately, when NAFTA and other free trade agreements materialized, American companies and goods flooded across the border and completed gutted Mexican industries. This is merely a way for them to help bring some needed dollars to Mexico, and to help legitimize the ways in which people are already doing it.
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2001, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/4 "2001-02-25T06:15:22Z")
I don’t understand what the point is. If work permits allow Mexicans to have (legal) US jobs and pay taxes, how is it any different from becoming a regular citizen?
What am I missing here?
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### Author:  [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2001, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/5 "2001-02-25T13:39:23Z")
Well, they still aren’t allowed to vote, for one thing. Nor do I think that they are eligible for Social Security. Work permit isn’t even necessarily the same as permanent resident. Work permits would be mostly utilized in the border areas so that Mexicans could work in areas like San Diego, El Paso, etc. by just commuting from their homes in TJ or Juarez. Migrant farmworkers would also fall under this category, I think.
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### Author:  [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2001, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/6 "2001-02-25T22:27:55Z")
I think it’s a great idea. Seriously. In 1996 the INS spent $500 million to keep them out. I can think of more interesting ways to spend $500 million.
[http://www.cnn.com/US/9603/immigration/20/](http://www.cnn.com/US/9603/immigration/20/)
And they’re doing jobs that basically nobody else wants to do, so forget about the “they’re taking jobs away from Americans!” B.S.
Sure, why not open the borders and let 'em in, wholesale?
But hey, keep them Canadians out, y’hear? No green cards for Canucks!
[sub]Just kidding.[/sub]
😃
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### Author:  [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2001, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/7 "2001-02-26T07:06:48Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \*
> \*\*But hey, keep them Canadians out, y’hear? No green cards for Canucks! \*\*
Hear hear!
\*\*
> [@](#):
>
> [sub]Just kidding.[/sub]
>
> :D\*\*
Hey! 😛
But seriously. I think Vincente Fox is the President that Mexico needs right now, but his proposal is just a way for Mexicans to have their cake and eat it too. But it will also mean that his countrymen could become perrrenial servants to their rich northern neighbor. He is essentially proposing that the border between our countries be made meaningless. This would be great for a lot of poor Mexicans, which is to say most of them. But how will it help them in the long run? Sure they can get jobs as servants to rich Americans, then go back home when they please. So what is their incentive to excel in American society? They have no reason to even attempt to become proper citizens. Yet American society would never fully accept them as long as they are “foreigners.”
It’s hard to think of a better solution, but one must exist. Maybe one not as agreeable to politicians, but better for the people themselves.
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### Author:  [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2001, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/8 "2001-02-26T07:29:22Z")
> [@](#):
>
> can think of more interesting ways to spend $500 million.
Yeah. Give it to me.
😃
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### Author:  [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2001, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/9 "2001-02-26T09:01:16Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by berdollos \*
> They would not become U.S. citizens but would pay U.S. and other taxes, contribute to social security and go to public schools. They could cross the border freely.
Ok one small problem, if you claim lots of dependents you pay little or no income taxes and or :eek: qualify for Earned income credit.
so in a nutshell it is possible to get back more than you paid in taxes and you arent even a US citizen.
does this disturb anyone other than me.
As far as I am concerned if you want the protections of US law you should be a US citizen. If not IMHO there should be some kind of “immigrant worker tax” so people are not just coming here to abuse the low income help in our tax systems.
Instead of fighting the border flood, tax it. Not a citizen, $50 please. OR how about taxing wire transfers to mexico?
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### Author:  [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2001, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/10 "2001-02-26T09:09:35Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly \*
> \*\*
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > can think of more interesting ways to spend $500 million.
>
> Yeah. Give it to me.
>
> 😃 \*\*
thats 5,000 FHA loans for families to buy nice homes every year, or a hell of alot more interest reduction assistance packages like I got on my house. Probably more like 40,000 of those 😃
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### Author:  [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2001, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/11 "2001-02-26T15:51:32Z")
Does anyone know how this works in Europe? Can you live in Luxembourg and work in Germany? If they’ve already been doing something similar to what Fox proposes and it’s been working for years, maybe a similar system could be set up here.
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### Author:  [@RoboDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoboDude)
#### Post date: [February 26, 2001, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/12 "2001-02-26T15:53:39Z")
> [@](#):
>
> But how will it help them in the long run? Sure they can get jobs as servants to rich Americans, then go back home when they please. So what is their incentive to excel in American society? They have no reason to even attempt to become proper citizens. Yet American society would never fully accept them as long as they are “foreigners.”
AFAIK, the idea isn’t to increase immigration, but to have people commute to work in the US so they can make far more money than they otherwise could and spend it back home, thereby stimulating Mexican businesses. Fox’s ultimate goal, if I’m not mistaken, is to stimulate the Mexican economy to the point where is is no longer the lifelong dream of nearly every Mexican citizen to move to the US.
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### Author:  [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2001, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/13 "2001-02-27T01:25:42Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by C3 \*
> \*\*Does anyone know how this works in Europe? Can you live in Luxembourg and work in Germany? If they’ve already been doing something similar to what Fox proposes and it’s been working for years, maybe a similar system could be set up here. \*\*
It’s quite simple in Europe, anyone can work wherever they please in the Union. It’s so much easier to work in another nation when countries are moving towards unification.
With regards to someone saying that the Mexicans could just move back to Mexico, that’s actually the idea here. A lot of studies/polls have shown that most Mexicans here illegally would much rather just come up for the day and work and then go back home. I don’t really have a problem with that.
By the by, does anyone know how permanent residents do their taxes and such? Are they eligible for Social Security and welfare?
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### Author:  [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2001, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/14 "2001-02-27T02:20:00Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by RoboDude \*
> Fox’s ultimate goal, if I’m not mistaken, is to stimulate the Mexican economy to the point where is is no longer the lifelong dream of nearly every Mexican citizen to move to the US. \*\*
So its our job to finance this?
Mexico’s problems go far beyond needing a few jobs
[http://www.travel.state.gov/mexico.html](http://www.travel.state.gov/mexico.html)
Armed insurrections, known abuses of authority by law enforcement, reccomendations not to travel at night.
I really don’t see how a handful of people living within 20-30 miles of the border being able to commute to the US is going to fix this.
> [@](#):
>
> A lot of studies/polls have shown that most Mexicans here illegally would much rather just come up for the day and work and then go back home. I don’t really have a problem with that.
I live in fresno, Ca. 100+ miles in most directions is heavy farming and massive amounts of migrant labor. These people are not driving home to mexico after work its a 9-10 hour drive to the mexican border. What provisions should be made for these 2-3 month farm workers?
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### Author:  [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2001, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/15 "2001-02-27T03:05:55Z")
I read somewhere that illegal Mexican immigrants, as a whole, actually pay more in uncollected tax refunds and social security, etc. than they cost in services. The money just goes into different budgets is all. I can’t find a cite. Anybody know more about this claim?
Peace,
mangeorge
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### Author:  [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2001, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/16 "2001-02-27T04:10:50Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by mangeorge \*
> \*\*I read somewhere that illegal Mexican immigrants, as a whole, actually pay more in uncollected tax refunds and social security, etc. than they cost in services. The money just goes into different budgets is all. I can’t find a cite. Anybody know more about this claim?
> Peace,
> mangeorge \*\*
500 million? I doubt it. That would take the 100% unrefunded income taxes of over 200,000 people (assuming 15,000/yr taxable income)
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### Author:  [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2001, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/17 "2001-02-27T04:37:02Z")
Oh c’mon, **drachillix**. You know better than to count that. It’s hardly a service for the immigrants. :rolleyes:
Peace,
mangeorge
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### Author:  [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2001, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/18 "2001-02-27T06:58:12Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by drachillix \*
> \*\*
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*Originally posted by RoboDude \*
> > Fox’s ultimate goal, if I’m not mistaken, is to stimulate the Mexican economy to the point where is is no longer the lifelong dream of nearly every Mexican citizen to move to the US. \*\*
>
> So its our job to finance this?
Um, how does Mexicans working for pay in the US equate with the US “financing” the development of the Mexican economy? Last I checked, employers hire people because that’s the way the employer makes money. Immigration is good for the US economy.
Sua
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### Author:  [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2001, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/19 "2001-02-27T07:11:14Z")
[QUOTE]
\*Originally posted by SuaSponte \*
\*\*
> [@](#):
>
> Um, how does Mexicans working for pay in the US equate with the US “financing” the development of the Mexican economy? Last I checked, employers hire people because that’s the way the employer makes money. Immigration is good for the US economy.
> \*\*
What **drachillix** is getting at is that probably not much of what these Mexican workers make will be spent _inside_ the United States. Many foreign workers here now (not necessarily Mexican) already send large portions of their income home to help their families. This is money removed permanently from the U.S. economy. Too much of it will lead to an even more pronounced drain on our national wealth than exists already. Some people (actually, a LOT of people) would claim that we can easily afford this, so why not just give the Mexicans a hand? This point of view assumes that our economy will always be running on afterburner like it has for the last 10 years and really, since the 1940’s. There is no reason to assume this will actually happen.
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### Author:  [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)
#### Post date: [February 27, 2001, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-permits-for-mexicans/55760/20 "2001-02-27T09:00:19Z")
As some of you know, I am a staunch advocate of immigration, especially when the immigrant has technical competence or has otherwise displayed an ability to contribute to industrial development. However, I have grave reservationsa bout this particular scheme.
Some of you have already pointed out that this plan could cause U.S. dollars to be leached out of the country, instead of being reinvested. Additionally, I’m also concerned that this scheme could be another avenue for Mexican women to give birth on U.S. soil, thereby granted their children automatic citizenship. I have no objections when citizenship is earned, or when it is granted under other reasonable circumstances. However, when it is acquired through such shady means, then the system is clearly being defeated.
Anyway, I don’t have any firm stance yet, but this whole proposal does make me a bit queasy.
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