Well, one way I know for sure to slow the immigration of these folks (from Mexico) is to take all the jobs for ourselves that they come here for.
Anybody wanna be a dishwasher?
Peace,
mangeorge
Thank you lizard for clarifying for me
The average US citizen has to pay out more in taxes than he uses in services or else our government would go broke. Those services are all encompassing, in our individual favor or not.
If we have to spend 500 million dollars a year on “services” to regulate, assist, police, etc immigrant workers then we better be seeing 500 million in tax revenues/fees or the program is hurting our country as a whole. I realize that some programs always burn huge amounts of money (FEMA for example, and I have no problem with them) with no fees, reimbursements, etc that they collect.
INS is a service for them, they facilitate legal immigration into this country, not just stand watch for illegals at the border.
I have ZERO sympathy for anyone in this country illegaly. I do not feel that our government has any obligation to care for them, protect them, educate their children, provide medical care for them, etc. No matter what their ethnic origin.
Nope, not the answer. As long as there are people willing to work for minimum wage then employers will use and abuse them. For someone used to making $6 a day minimum wage looks like $60/hr does to us. Look at Denver, less than 2% unemployment, my company’s branch in Denver only gets recent parolees and recent HS grads applying for $10-12 an hour, anyone else won’t work for that little pay. When the employers have to pay decently they will. As long as the supply of cheap labor exceeds the demand those jobs will stay at minimum wage.
Much of the stigma of working in some occupations is due to their low pay. If McDonalds paid $15/hr to start we would have people with masters degrees lining up to work there.
And nobody would make fun of them for working there when the employee parking area was full of nice new cars.
Er, I believe this point needs some clarification. Luxembourg is to Germany IS NOT as Mexico is to the U.S. Mexico and the U.S. are not in an economic union.
My understanding is that it’s extremely difficult for, say, Americans to get jobs in Europe, unless you’ve got some kind of very specialized skill. And I think that’s what C3 was asking, perhaps not realizing that the EU has loosened up the intra-Union work permit rules somewhat.
Hey, they’ve got their own website! Just like a real government and everything! 
http://europa.eu.int/index-en.htm
Map of the member states. Kewl!
http://europa.eu.int/abc/eu_members/index_en.htm
And finally, you can pick the EU country you’re from, and pick the country you’re interested in working in, and get the facts.
http://citizens.eu.int/originchoice.htm
Now, AFAIK, there’s no equivalent arrangement between Mexico and the U.S. But maybe there should be.
According to the latest INS statistics (1998) I could find, there were 2.7 million suspected illegals from Mexico in the US. That’s about $185 each (including kids) to pay for the INS’s $500 million. And that figure includes services to legal immigrants. Sounds to me like the legals may be getting a free ride.
Ok, so these numbers are a little screwy. Numbers related to topics like these usually are.
My point is simply that “economic drain” is hardly a primary justification for objection to illegal immigration.
Even if the entire $500 mil. were due to illegals, that’s only a couple bucks for each citizen of the US. Small potatoes.
As far as helping to keep some wages low, that mat very well be true. But these are, for the most part, jobs that nobody wants. And not just because of the low pay. I’m talking about “nasty” jobs, like dishwashers, janitors, and the like. Would you do any of this work, even for the same money you’re making now? I wouldn’t
I think that our objection to illegal immigration is far more complex than simple economic issues.
Peace,
mangeorge
I have doubts about the assertion probably. However…
I would question the assumption that the money is permanently removed from the US economy. To the extent that Mexico trades heavily with the US, it will indeed be recycled in terms of US exports. In addition, Mexican development, if it occurs, can only be positive in terms of long term development of wealth in the region.
I believe the supposition of drain on our national wealth is fallacious. I would advise taking a look at our current accounts data from the IMF. I don’t recall that transfers make up a large %.
In fact, low US domestic savings rate, entirely dependant on the bad habits of good old citizens is the real drain on our national wealth, in the long term. We should thank our lucky stars foreign capital continues to fund our savings deficit.
No, it would seem to me that the position would recognize that assistance which builds up wealth building capacity among your trading partners helps lead to sustained economic growth. The same idea has driven the EU policy of wealthy to poor member transfers/funding from such nations as Germany to such nations as Spain.
In the long run, we benefit.
SERVICES to legal immigrants?!?! You can’t possibly have dealt with the INS, an agency so sloppy, so lazy, so bigoted and ill-informed that it’s an embarrassment to America.
In order to become a legal immigrant in this country, there are two possibilities: you get an employer to file for a work-related immigrant visa (MOST are NOT permanent, by the way; most are temporary and contemplate that the alien MUST return to his or homeland after several years) or you get a U.S. citizen or someone ALREADY here as a legal permanent resident to make an application for you to come as a relative. US citizens can get their parents, kids (umarried, below a certain age) and spouses in “immediately” (the processing wait is between six months and six YEARS depending on how smart the INS flunky who processes the case is, and how much he or she resents and fears foreigners–or doing any actual work.) Relatives of legal permament residents who AREN’T U.S. citizens have to wait years and years–we’re talking waits like ten, twelve, seventeen years–in most cases just to get permission to enter the U.S.–and once they admit they want to join their wife or husband, they usually can’t get an ordinary visitor’s visa. Nice dilemma, huh? You HAVE to file the application to get your “place in line” but once you do, you can’t see the people you love the most in the world till you get to the front of the line. “I love you honey, and I want you to be with me, but you can’t see me for about seven years once I send in these papers.”
In all of these “relative” cases, the relative in the US has to sign an affidavit of support and PROVE that they can pay for their relative’s total support because–guess what?–those people are NOT entitled to any of the services we characterize as “welfare.” And that person is on the hook and can be forced to REPAY the U.S, government if their incoming relatives are found to be using our social benefits. So no food stamps, no emergency housing, no AFDC, no government scholarships, no school lunches…if it’s a government benefit given because of low income and you’re an alien, you can’t have it. And if you take it, somebody has to pay it back. (Yes, they do get emergency room care, but surely nobody’s proposing that we turn away the desperately ill just because they can’t pony up an insurance card).
You folks just have no idea how BAD the INS is: I had a client who gave birth to two children, who she was forced to abandon in her home country when she fled after horrendous political violence. The details of what happened to her would give you nightmares for weeks. She gets political asylum here, she eventually becomes a U.S. citizen. She manages to send money to feed and educate her children back home for about a decade and FINALLY has the right to bring them here “immediately.” But the INS officer, despite birth certificates, affidavits by her priest and ex-husband, receipts for six years of school tuition, cards and letters and photos, won’t give them immigrant visas because he says the ONLY way she can prove they’re actually her children is to get DNA tests (about $2000 APIECE for her and each child–$6000 TOTAL). So far, three lawyers have been unable to get this boneheaded decision reversed…and you know what? we actually don’t have any legal reason to be able to. She has rights, BUT HER KIDS DON’T because they’re not citizens. meanwhile, she’s working at her low-paying job and saving.
What’s the real problem in that case? I can’t prove it, but I’ll tell you what the problem is. She’s black. Trust me, this kind of crap NEVER happens when you want to immigrate from a nice European country and your last name is Smedly-Smythe and you have white skin. Then you get a little routine “you forgot to fill in this blank here, but we decided to adminsitratively overlook it, so hre’s your visa.”
My point is that one reason we have so many “illegals” here is that we have these stupid laws, miserably administered, and the net result is a system so frustrating, so impossible to navigate legally while still fulfilling the ordinary human things like having your family live with you, that people are DRIVEN to break the law, sneak into the country, and live in an underground economy. We create the problem, then we blame the victims.
Well, I have. I used to do it on a daily basis, in fact, and I take quite a bit of issue with much of your post.
All immigrant visas are permanent - by definition. Most work-related visas aren’t, but do you really have a problem with that? Even as a wholehearted immigration supporter, I certainly see no reason why allowing somebody into a country to fill what might be a temporary need should automatically mean allowing them to remain in that country forever.
Or how much funding the INS is getting and which of its many backlogs it’s currently trying to clear.
If spouse is outside the country, s/he can obtain an immigrant visa through a US Consulate. The procedure is called “following to join” and I would really like to see an example of it taking twelve years. Christ, it doesn’t even take someone that long to obtain citizenship and have their spouse become eligible immediately!
I’m not really sure what the welfare laws at this point are, but the affidavit of support basically just has to show that the sponsoring relative has a decent income level. And again, I hardly see what the problem with that is. If that requirement didn’t exist it would just give the Republicans ammunition to complain about people immigrating to the US just to take advantage of its welfare benefits.
If this really happened, that’s an abuse by the particular INS agent. It is not INS policy.
:rolleyes: I can state for absolute fact that this is not true. A form that’s not filled out properly will be returned, regardless of the race of the applicant. You’ve no idea how many times I saw it happen.
The agency certainly could be run better; you’ll get no argument from me on that. But be realistic, AP! The restrictions that are in place are there for a purpose - to keep immigration at a reasonable level, and to ensure as much as possible that the people being allowed in are benefitting or at least not harming the country. Inevitably this is going to inconvenience some of these immigrants, but you know what? That’s life. Immigration is a privilege, not a right. People need to keep that in mind.
Oh, to answer the OP … I’d endorse the proposal, with qualifications. As long as these folks are working in the US anyway - and they are - it really only makes sense to try to get some tax money out of them. Maybe some of the administrative costs could be borne by the money currently being wasted on the border patrol. After this rant I’m too tired to think it all the way through 
but it’s certainly a proposal worth studying, I think.
I also think Mexicans should be allowed entry under the TN “visa” on the same terms that Canadians are under NAFTA, but that’s probably enough for one post for today …
Nope the legals are paying taxes
500 million only in INS, how about welfare programs, public schooling, medical assistance, food stamps, the list goes on
I agree here
Why not?
see above list
You wouldn’t work as a dishwasher to keep your kids fed?
If you could make a good living at it you would. Would you prefer being say a Paramedic, who dosent make all that much more than many dishwashers at least around here, and has to deal with hate, death, pain, and suffering all day. Define nasty job.
agreed here
Every little check cashing place and many of the convenience stores here in fresno boldly advertise on their storefronts that they do wire transfers to mexico. If this was not a serious market they would not bother printing large color banners to try and attract the business.
drachillix pleads;
Don’t know about that, but I can try to define “nasty” job.
It’s one of those jobs most of us don’t want to do. Usually, but not limited to, cleaning up somebody else’s crap.
Do you know any paramedics? Those who I’ve known like their jobs, and think of their work as being ultimately very rewarding. They do save lives, you know. I agree that many of them should be paid more, tho.
I grew up in Bakersfield, drachillix, and lived, worked, and made friends with many of the people we’re so casually discussing here. California has, and still does, benefit greatly from the labors of wetbacks from Mexico. And no, I’m not going to offer any cites.
So, answer my question. Do you want to work as a dishwasher, even for the same wage you’re earning, doing whatever you’re doing for a living?
That was the actual question, not whether I would work at such a job to feed my kids. Of course I would. I’d steal to feed my kids.
Let me start with that phrase 1st. It jumped out at me. I have always considered what you just said as a racist saying due its derogatory meaning. I just had a conversation with the janitorial lady here at work who is of Mexican origin (she does not speak any English so I used the Spanish to English dictionary) and she finds that term offensive.
Now for the OP. This issue bothers me since we are all immigrants and what we want to do is close the door after our ancestors got here.
I guess I do not understand how this would change from the current system of green card and temporary work permits. I know that there are people who live in Mexico and legally come into the US to work for farmers. They travel everyday into the US to work and then go home to their families in Mexico at night.
If someone has more info on what the real recommendation is it would help us debate this specific issue more rather than a general debate on the pros and cons of Mexican laborer/illegal immigrants in the US.
Aggregates my dear fellow, aggregates. They may do a wonderful lively business and it still may be insignificant in re the US economy overall. That is why I directed you to the IMF current accounts data on net transfers.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mangeorge *
drachillix pleads;
Pleads? :rolleyes:
Trust Me, paramedics end up doing this too
Yup know lots of them, I worked as an EMT in Fresno for two years. I personally loved it. I also know alot of people who I tell that and they say something to the extent of “ewww icky”. Despite my overall enjoyment of the job, as far as I am concerned washing dishes is about a hundred times nicer than having people bleed and barf on you all the time.
Grew up in Watsonville, Ca. Currently live in Fresno. both heavy agricultural areas like Bakersfield. I know the subject well
Lovely vocabulary here, take off the pointy white hood so you can read posts better please.
If I could get the same pay and benefits as my current job, sure I’d be a dishwasher.
Dishwashers with discounted stock purchase plans, that will be the day
hopefully a dishwashing opportunity would come up before pursuing this option
Thank you collounsbury, didnt think of that aspect
deb2world, you’re absolutely right. Sometimes I forget that I’m typing, not talking. The term was in very common use, in english, among the immigrants I hung around with, and no offense would have been taken. This was from the mid 50’s to the mid 60’s. A different time. Please offer my sincere apologies to your ‘janitorial lady’ for me.
Nasty, nasty.
To address the OP: I don’t know a lot about the Vincente to Bush proposal, but we had a similar system called the “Bracero” program, in the 50’s which was adopted to benefit the farmers in the US. I see no problem with such a program if safeguards are in place to protect the workers. Real safeguards.
Peace,
mangeorge (white hood?)