# Work situation: do I have a point or am I overreacting? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 29, 2017, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589 "2017-09-29T13:02:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/21 "2017-09-29T18:00:48Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m not sure I agree with you. He’s a senior manager; you are not even a junior manager. To me, he’s way more senior than you. “Manager” is not really a seniority thing in tech organizations. I’m absolutely on par with other managers in the organization, even though I don’t manage people. I manage technology and code instead. We also have Product Owners, who don’t manage people, but who are also on par with mid-level managers. I realize in other industries, managing people = seniority, but not in a lot of tech orgs, and certainly not here. Heck, we have Directors with no direct reports, and they are absolutely near the top of the hierarchy, right below “VP.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/22 "2017-09-29T18:01:55Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That’s not necessarily true, unless your “most-senior tech geek” role is considered equivalent to a Sr Manager. Your director could certainly have people of different levels reporting to him or her. This was my thought, too. You may not be Bob’s subordinate, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re his equal, either. You also mentioned that both of you have been promoted once since you _did_ work for him, which would put him one level above you (again) if the company has rigid pay bands. Regardless, I’d let it go. If you took time off and he asked why you didn’t clear it with him first, that would be an issue. But the opposite - what actually happened - is not, at least in my book. ---
**Author:** ![slalexan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@slalexan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slalexan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/23 "2017-09-29T18:12:56Z")
> [@FairyChatMom](#): > > Going on the assumption that Athena indicates a person of the female persuasion, I can’t go along with “Let it slide.” I’m not saying turn this into a feminist cause, but I’d have to mention something to Bob to let him know _“You’re not the boss of me!!”_ in as professional way as possible. Maybe I’m overly sensitive, but I spent too many years in Engineering being treated as if I were a secretary or receptionist rather than an engineer. (And I’m not trashing secretaries or receptionists, so don’t anyone get all wound up about that.) This has been some of my exact experience as an engineer. I was never called a secretary but I was often called an “assistant” and it was often assumed that I was less senior even around young engineers my age. It’s frustrating and I’m very non-confrontational and I’ve let things slide in the past that I really regret. I would correct Bob in the most non-insulting way possible. One example where something like this happened to me - I was working on bringing a technician in to work on a specialized piece of equipment in the plant. He came out and started work but when one of the male shift supervisors (same pay grade as me), he stopped communicating with me and started communicating with the shift supervisor and asking him for decisions about what money we would be spending. Those decisions were my responsibility and it would be my fault if the project went over budget. Thankfully, the shift supervisor understood this and deferred those decisions to me but it took several times to remind him. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/24 "2017-09-29T18:30:38Z")
I was never a big fan of the passive aggressive style. If I had an issue, I would bring it up directly with the person involved. And if somebody had a problem with me, I preferred they do the same. I never liked it when people tried to send messages indirectly by telling a joke or an anecdote and assuming I would figure out their hidden meaning. I liked it even less when they got a third person involved. So I’ll stick with my previous advice: if you have a problem with Bob, go discuss it with Bob. That said, my work relations weren’t always smooth. Some people seemed to like the indirect approach and didn’t like it when I brought up something they were trying to avoid. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/25 "2017-09-29T18:34:35Z")
I actually don’t want to get too worked up over the hierarchy; it’s fairly fluid here, and as I said before, I’m pretty certain I’m perceived as being somewhere towards the top in my department. Indeed, my director just informed me that he, Bob, and I will be doing a “chat” at an upcoming department event where, as department leaders, we’ll be asked questions about the department, what we do, the longterm vision, etc, as well as take questions from the crowd (which consists of the rest of the folks in the department). So yeah, I’m fairly secure in my assessment of where I’m at. What I am more interested in is whether or not I should say something to Bob. I’m leaning towards letting it go… but like **slalexan** and others have pointed out, sometimes being a chick and a lead, especially in a tech environment, is tough. Everyone assumes you’re the secretary. I’m sure Bob doesn’t, but at the same time, I want my role to be clear - not because I have my ego invested in it, but because I feel pretty strongly that teams work better when people’s roles are clear to everyone involved. Having a tech question that should go directly to me be routed through 2 rounds of team managers and a couple product managers before someone goes “Hey, isn’t Athena our tech resource?” doesn’t do anyone any good. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/26 "2017-09-29T18:43:16Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > My problem is that nowadays, he STILL sometimes acts like I work for him. Most of the time it’s fine - by definition, my job is to help the developers on the teams he oversees, so it’s not at all odd for him to call me up and say “Hey, can you give Joe a hand? There’s the code issue he needs some help with.” No big deal. > > _SNIP_ > > Nothing he’s done is rude, or bad, or even anything more than being slightly more boss-ish than is warranted when he talks to me. A good example happened the other day - he and I and a couple of guys who report to Bob were working on a deploy issue at night, and it took us until about 11pm to fix it. Once it was trending towards done, Bob sends me and his two direct reports a message saying “Hey guys, once this last issue is fixed, feel free to head out and also take off early tomorrow!” > > Which is fine and good, if you report to him. I don’t; it’s not up to him when I sign off or if I work all day or take off early. He’s not my manager. What would happen if you say “No, I don’t think helping Joe is my priority now”? Or “No, let’s go home and we can fix this last issue tomorrow”? ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/27 "2017-09-29T18:50:38Z")
> [@treis](#): > > What would happen if you say “No, I don’t think helping Joe is my priority now”? > > Or “No, let’s go home and we can fix this last issue tomorrow”? They both depend on the severity of what’s going on. If I don’t think Joe’s stuff is high enough on my priority list, I’d tell that to Bob and Bob would either have to convince me that Joe’s stuff really is A Big Problem, or he’d go find someone else to work with Joe. Same with the second one. In that specific example, if I’d’ve said that, I have more that Bob coming down on me; it was an issue in production, and you don’t just let that go until tomorrow. I’d’ve had my boss and my boss’s boss on me for that one unless my house were burning down or something. If it was a standard run-of-the-mill issue, 1) none of us would have been working late on it and 2) I’d have no problem telling Bob “I can’t do this right now, can I catch up with you guys on it tomorrow?” ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/28 "2017-09-29T19:32:53Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > They both depend on the severity of what’s going on. If I don’t think Joe’s stuff is high enough on my priority list, I’d tell that to Bob and Bob would either have to convince me that Joe’s stuff really is A Big Problem, or he’d go find someone else to work with Joe. > > Same with the second one. In that specific example, if I’d’ve said that, I have more that Bob coming down on me; it was an issue in production, and you don’t just let that go until tomorrow. I’d’ve had my boss and my boss’s boss on me for that one unless my house were burning down or something. > > If it was a standard run-of-the-mill issue, 1) none of us would have been working late on it and 2) I’d have no problem telling Bob “I can’t do this right now, can I catch up with you guys on it tomorrow?” More of what I was driving at is in a business conflict with you and Bob who’s going to win and are there repercussions for defiance? The answer to that goes a long way to answering how much Bob is de facto your boss. Honestly, I don’t think Bob’s minor transgressions are your biggest problem. This is: > [@Athena](#): > > It’s an ongoing discussion between all of us as far as how, exactly, we lead when we really can’t say to a developer or team “Hey, you guys really need to be doing \, not \.” The best we can do is convince our directors or various middle management to support our ideas (which is usually fine, but occasionally we’ll get a team who is determined to go off on their own, much to our chagrin, because it’s US who are called in the middle of the night when things go sideways.) If you don’t have the power to say “We are doing \ and not \” when these are technical matters then you are not the “lead architect/technical talent for the department”. That’s where I would focus your political machinations. Try to get the actual authority to have the final say on technical matters within your department. Ultimately, that’s going to be better for you in the long run than worrying about Bob’s annoyances. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/29 "2017-09-29T20:17:00Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If you don’t have the power to say “We are doing \ and not \” when these are technical matters then you are not the “lead architect/technical talent for the department”. That’s where I would focus your political machinations. Try to get the actual authority to have the final say on technical matters within your department. Ultimately, that’s going to be better for you in the long run than worrying about Bob’s annoyances. Yeah, maybe I am taking out my annoyance with this on Bob. Yes, I AM the lead architect/tech talent for the department; if you ask senior management they would agree with that, and I certainly have partial responsibility when things break. But folks don’t report to me. Other tech folks can comment, but this really isn’t all that uncommon in the tech world. Indeed, the way our company is set up, individual teams have a LOT of power. If a dev team decides “we’re going to do things like \” and they convince their team lead to buy into it, in most cases it’s going to happen even if the rest of the organization says they’re nuts and it won’t work. I’m not the only one bitching about this setup; pretty much everyone who has been here more than a few years and is in a somewhat mid- to high-level tech role says the same thing. It’s absolutely confounding, and leads to things like 4 different UI frameworks in one project. Craziness. That said, so far we’re successful and getting more so, regardless of the goofy structure. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/30 "2017-09-29T20:23:37Z")
KYMS. Keep your mouth shut. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/31 "2017-09-29T20:59:45Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > Yeah, maybe I am taking out my annoyance with this on Bob. Yes, I AM the lead architect/tech talent for the department; if you ask senior management they would agree with that, and I certainly have partial responsibility when things break. But folks don’t report to me. Other tech folks can comment, but this really isn’t all that uncommon in the tech world. Bob the Senior Manager isn’t Senior Management? Is it more a ceremonial title? 😕 I’ll agree that it can be confusing. My last job in a tech consulting firm was very similar. I was a “Senior Manager” in that I reported to my Director who reported to our VP and other more junior Managers reported to me. Those individuals have their own departmental P&Ls and would be responsible for things like raises, bonuses or firing. But as we were a PMO (Project Management Organization), I would also act as a Senior Project or Program Manager and typically have team members like Lead Architects or Creative Directors who may be my level or even more senior. They would report to their own chain of command. It’s what we in the business call a “matrix organization”. It can be very confusing when your immediate manager is positioning you for a promotion while his VP who works in some other city is putting you on a “performance improvement plan”. ---
**Author:** ![Patx2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/73ab20/32.png) [@Patx2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patx2)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/32 "2017-09-29T21:21:05Z")
You mentioned that a lot of the work Bob has called you in on is sort of on a consulting type basis with other departments or his department if I understand correctly. I would probably not worry about saying anything to Bob, but I’d let the other employees know, who you are, what department you are with AND that you are there for consulting purposes, in other words, I’m here to support you, but this isn’t my “day job.” That way there’s no confusion for them as to what your role is. The next time Bob tells you to come in late, I’d just say something like, I wish I could, but in my department I’m expected in by a certain time, or my department has an early meeting in the morning, maybe he will start to get the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/33 "2017-09-29T21:27:52Z")
So where I’ve worked - a senior technical person (and architect for instance) is often same grade level and responsibility level as a Senior Manager - and probably gets paid more. Its the “non-people” track - and often is the same grade level as a Director (manager, sr mgr, director, sr, director, exec director, vp, senior vp, exec vp - tech track might be engineer, senior engineer, research engineer, architect…). In many organizations a senior level technical person is much more valuable to the organization and has a lot more status, than a sr. manager, who runs people and budgets. Those guys are easy to replace, management schools churn them out. A good tech professional who can deal with both management and engineers (and a female one! which makes your company look sensitive! Better yet, a black technical person) is much more difficult to find. Sr Managers aren’t Senior Management in most organizations I’ve been in. Senior managers are just managers who needed to be promoted and aren’t ready to be directors (which is the junior senior management role) and are well down the food chain from a VP. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/34 "2017-09-29T21:47:20Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > Yeah, maybe I am taking out my annoyance with this on Bob. Yes, I AM the lead architect/tech talent for the department; if you ask senior management they would agree with that, and I certainly have partial responsibility when things break. But folks don’t report to me. Other tech folks can comment, but this really isn’t all that uncommon in the tech world. Indeed, the way our company is set up, individual teams have a LOT of power. If a dev team decides “we’re going to do things like \” and they convince their team lead to buy into it, in most cases it’s going to happen even if the rest of the organization says they’re nuts and it won’t work. > > I’m not the only one bitching about this setup; pretty much everyone who has been here more than a few years and is in a somewhat mid- to high-level tech role says the same thing. It’s absolutely confounding, and leads to things like 4 different UI frameworks in one project. Craziness. That said, so far we’re successful and getting more so, regardless of the goofy structure. It is very common for dev teams to report to someone else while being under a lead architect. However, in situations like that, if a dev team says we wanna do \ and the lead architect says no, you should do \, \ is what gets implemented. If I am reading this right, you are saying the team leads have that authority and if I assume right, those team leads report into Bob. I also assume that if Bob came in and said we should do \ and not \, \ is what would be done? You say that on paper you and Bob are peers. However, from what I am reading Bob is pretty clearly more senior and has more sway in the organization despite you sharing a boss. Senior management might describe you as a lead architect for the department, but honestly it sounds more like you are an internal consultant/best practices/tech guru type person. As far as I can tell, you don’t really have any authority to tell anyone to do anything. Instead of bitching about the setup, try coming up with a plan where you have more authority. A simple thing would be regular code reviews with the developers within your department. Another option would be asking for the authority to approve the tech stack and other major design decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/35 "2018-12-14T14:19:31Z")
Mild bump here… emphases mine… > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > **The first thing you need to do is decide if this is an issue you want to address. Be aware there might be consequences.** If you don’t want to risk them, just let this go. > > If you do want to address it, I think **the first person you should talk to is Bob in a one-on-one situation**. Remind him that you don’t report to him and \*\*explain how his acting as if you do undermines your authority and confuses other employees. Present this as a business issue not a personal one. \*\* > > If that doesn’t resolve the problem, go to the person you do report to and raise the issue with them. Your director should step in and clear this up. > > The possible downsides are that you might end up in a hostile working relationship with Bob. Or your director might decide to clear the problem up by officially placing you under Bob. Or worst; both of the above. As another said upthread, **Little Nemo** you nailed it. I’m also in a similar situation, also in a SW dev work environment, and I’ve already planned to discuss a similar issue with my boss. I’ve already jotted down notes to guide my talk — I find they really help me stay on point and in scope. **Little Nemo** , the emphasized parts are more helpful than you know, they are perfect! Thank you, **Little Nemo**. I should have that talk today, as long as things aren’t too busy. I hope it goes well, wish me luck. ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/36 "2018-12-14T16:00:26Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Mild bump here… emphases mine… Mild bump? Lol It’s over a year later. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/37 "2018-12-14T16:10:56Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > Mild bump? Lol It’s over a year later. :dubious: Mild in the sense that it hasn’t been several years, or over a decade! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589/38 "2018-12-14T16:26:36Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > As another said upthread, **Little Nemo** you nailed it. I’m also in a similar situation, also in a SW dev work environment, and I’ve already planned to discuss a similar issue with my boss. I’ve already jotted down notes to guide my talk — I find they really help me stay on point and in scope. **Little Nemo** , the emphasized parts are more helpful than you know, they are perfect! Thank you, **Little Nemo**. > > I should have that talk today, as long as things aren’t too busy. I hope it goes well, wish me luck. I’m glad it helped. I hope things work out satisfactorily. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/work-situation-do-i-have-a-point-or-am-i-overreacting/797589.md?page=1)