# Workable affordable air travel safety: **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 10, 2010, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370 "2010-01-10T05:37:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/1 "2010-01-10T05:37:53Z")
Thread after thread: Profile _Oh yes… Oh Noes !!!_ Full body scanning: _Oh yes… Oh Noes !!!_ Pat downs: _Oh yes… Oh Noes !!!_ It is not right, it is sexist, it is profiling, it is bad, you are an idiot, you are full of it, Grrrrrr “(I’ll see you in the pit.”) Rant , scream, and nothing is said. Nothing gained. So, what is your affordable and workable solution to all air travel in the US of A Planes leaving the county and planes arriving from other countries and all domestic flying. The only way to not offend anyone is to shut down all flying. But that is not workable. Or we could not check anybody… But who would be stupid nuff to get on a plane much less find pilots to fly them. That is not workable. Make everybody nice… Don’t see that happening. And that pesky affordable part. IMO, tear down the TSA as it is and rebuild it exactly like Israel does it. That is the cheapest and most successful system so far. If we tore down all the TSA BS we have, we would very nearly have the money to do it. Any other ideas that you think are workable and affordable? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/2 "2010-01-10T05:57:13Z")
Our current airport security system not only is a joke, but a sham and a scam. Friends and relatives who are in the industry tell me it’s all window-dressing. The Israeli El Al system is the best answer. Fast, efficient, effective and cost-effective. It will never happen in America. Money, politicians and power interests will see to that because the false sense of security is a real money-spinner. At the same time, Americans and their self-importance would never stand for it. The current system only “works” to a degree because the foreign terrorists still do not understand Americans and American culture. They continue to be blinded by their own ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/3 "2010-01-10T06:00:06Z")
Would somebody mind summarizing how the Israeli system works and what some of its pros and cons are? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/4 "2010-01-10T06:11:34Z")
In a nutshell: train people well and trust their judgment. Pro: It works. Con: It means relying on people instead of procedures. That’s not the American way. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/5 "2010-01-10T06:30:15Z")
[ul] [li][El Al Security in Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al#El_Al_security).[/li][li][USAToday article from 2001](http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/10/01/elal-usat.htm) first-person account.[/li][li][Detailed BusinessWeek article](http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/aug2003/nf20030825_5134_db039.htm) from 2003.[/li][/ul] Bottom line. It uses assertive human intelligence, active profiling and no exceptions in the process. ---
**Author:** ![manila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@manila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manila)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/6 "2010-01-10T06:52:15Z")
Wiki gives a reasonable outline of El Al security. I am certain they would not go into every detail but the crux of the matter seems to me to be an individual interview with every passenger before flying. > **[El Al](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al)** > > El Al Israel Airlines Ltd. (TASE: ELAL, Hebrew: אל על נתיבי אויר לישראל בע״מ), trading as El Al (Hebrew: .mw-parser-output .script-hebrew,.mw-parser-output .script-Hebr{font-family:"SBL Hebrew","SBL BibLit","Taamey Ashkenaz","Taamey Frank CLM","Frank Ruehl CLM","Ezra SIL","Ezra SIL SR","Keter Aram Tsova","Taamey David CLM","Keter YG","Shofar","David CLM","Hadasim CLM","Simple CLM","Nachlieli",Cardo,Alef,"Noto Serif Hebrew","Noto Sans Hebrew","David Libre",David,"Times New Roman",Gisha,Arial,Fr El... For my $0.02 I think that use can be made of the fact that lots of travellers may know well in advance as to when they need to travel, for holidays as an example. If say a two week booking period was enforced, reasonably thorough background checks could be made in that time. Urgent travel with last minute bookings could be subject to as stringent flight conditions as you need. Personally, I wouldn’t object to the hand carried stuff being phased out but I can see that may not be possible in all cases. I have a long haul flight twice a month now for some time and have evolved a dress code that gets me through nearly all xray machines without setting off an alarm. I would like to see a little “positive profiling” whereby advance bookers and frequent fliers with no carry on and no xray blips can get fast tracked through the various checks. Prolly never happen ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/7 "2010-01-10T07:22:55Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > [ul] > [li][El Al Security in Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al#El_Al_security).[/li][li][USAToday article from 2001](http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/10/01/elal-usat.htm) first-person account.[/li][li][Detailed BusinessWeek article](http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/aug2003/nf20030825_5134_db039.htm) from 2003.[/li][/ul] > Bottom line. It uses assertive human intelligence, active profiling and no exceptions in the process. [A more up-do-date article.](http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother) It’s not as if you guys can’t do this - look at your casino security system, for instance. Maybe you should hire \*those \*guys to look after your airports. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/8 "2010-01-10T07:40:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > [A more up-do-date article.](http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother) > > It’s not as if you guys can’t do this - look at your casino security system, for instance. Maybe you should hire \*those \*guys to look after your airports. It’s not a technical issue. It’s not a money issue. It’s attitude and politics. It just won’t happen no matter how bad it gets. ---
**Author:** ![anya\_marie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@anya\_marie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anya_marie)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/9 "2010-01-10T09:15:58Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Our current airport security system not only is a joke, but a sham and a scam. The Israeli El Al system is the best answer. Fast, efficient, effective and cost-effective. It will never happen in America. Money, politicians and power interests will see to that because the false sense of security is a real money-spinner. The current system only “works” to a degree because the foreign terrorists still do not understand Americans and American culture. I wish they would do security here like EL Al because El Al has their shit together and we don’t. Out security is a fucked up hot mess, and the thought of flying with these TSA clowns makes me more nervous than i was before, and i am not a person who really enjoys flying. ---
**Author:** ![CutterJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@CutterJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CutterJohn)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/10 "2010-01-10T13:38:57Z")
I would have no issue walking into the terminal, handing my tickets to the stewardess, and walking on the plane, with no check points or security check. It would still be safer than driving. Hostage situations can be avoided by simply locking the door(and of course it would be a very robust door), then simply not negotiating. Bombs can’t be stopped, period. Sooner or later they will figure out that nobody can see _inside_ the body, and if you’re going to die anyway, no reason not to simply have it implanted. Painful no doubt, but that would just make the sacrifice more meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/11 "2010-01-10T16:11:42Z")
Fuck El Al. I don’t live in Israel, and I’m not showing up at the goddamn airport three hours early. I’m fine with the scanners, fine with X-rays, and only somewhat pissed off about having to take off my shoes and pull shit out of my bag, but I am vigorously, vehemently opposed to anything that’s going to add even more time and make my one hour flight take as long as driving – I’m paying for the speed, damn it. No carry-ons? Fuck that – I haven’t checked a bag since 1999. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/12 "2010-01-10T16:25:57Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > Fuck El Al. I don’t live in Israel, and I’m not showing up at the goddamn airport three hours early. I do… And I don’t think I’ve **ever** bothered to show up 3 hours before a flight. In fact, I’ve gotten on flights where I showed up an hour before flight time (not on purpose, but still.) This has happened to me both at Heathrow and at Newark, so I’m not talking about dinky little airports, either. I believe you’ll find that the check-in process will, most likely, take you an additional 5-15 minutes if you’re not singled out for inspection (which can happen on any other airline as well); and you’re actually **expected** to be at the gate in time for boarding (i.e., 30-45 minutes before flight time.) ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/13 "2010-01-10T21:02:28Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > Fuck El Al. I don’t live in Israel, and I’m not showing up at the goddamn airport three hours early. I see you didn’t read the [posted links](http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother): > [@](#): > > The goal at Ben-Gurion is to move fliers from the parking lot to the airport lounge **in a maximum of 25 minutes**. (Bolding mine.) So what is the current timeframe you operate under from parking lot to gate, going through security, removing your shoes, scanners, bag Xray, etc? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/14 "2010-01-10T21:54:30Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > I see you didn’t read the [posted links](http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother): Seriously, read this. I can attest to the absolute veracity of the parts which talk about measures I can **see** , as well as at least some of those I wouldn’t see, as a passenger. > [@Ducster's link (Toronto Star)](#): > > The goal at Ben-Gurion is to move fliers from the parking lot to the airport lounge in a maximum of 25 minutes. OK, to be honest, this doesn’t always work – but every time it has taken me longer to get to the Duty Free shops, it was because of the actual “regular” baggage check-in booths being swamped – the only part of the check-in process that is identical to the rest of the world, and **not** security-related. And I have never spent more than 45 minutes from the exit off the freeway to the lounge, even during the heaviest traffic, since they’ve opened the new terminal (which was, I think, in 2002, 2003…?) ---
**Author:** ![FatBaldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/15 "2010-01-10T21:57:42Z")
The most workable solution is obvious. Everyone flies naked. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/16 "2010-01-10T22:09:41Z")
> [@CutterJohn](#): > > I would have no issue walking into the terminal, handing my tickets to the stewardess, and walking on the plane, with no check points or security check. > > It would still be safer than driving. > Hostage situations can be avoided by simply locking the door(and of course it would be a very robust door), then simply not negotiating. > > Bombs can’t be stopped, period. Sooner or later they will figure out that nobody can see _inside_ the body, and if you’re going to die anyway, no reason not to simply have it implanted. Painful no doubt, but that would just make the sacrifice more meaningful. I’m a professional pilot, and I agree with most of this. Reinforcing of cockpit doors and changing procedures in hijack situations made sense, and we should have stopped right there. There is no way to meaningfully scan for every type of weapon or explosive that wouldn’t put a stop to commercial air travel, so I think we shouldn’t even try. At least not the way we’re currently doing it. Not sure how well the Israeli style of interviewing would work on a larger scale, but in principle I like the idea of trusting trained people to ferret out wrongdoers. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/17 "2010-01-10T22:16:45Z")
Lots of links showing that El Al’s security is incredibly effective. I don’t see any showing that it’s cost-effective. In fact, I don’t see _any_ discussion of its cost at all, other than posters asserting that it’s cost effective. The interviewing portion alone sounds extremely time- and labor-intensive. More on this, please. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/18 "2010-01-10T23:28:59Z")
Israel does have one key resource that the U.S. lacks - an endless supply of 20-something military veterans working their way through college. They constitute the backbone of the Israeli security industry, and they’re just not as common anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/19 "2010-01-11T02:25:55Z")
Thanks for the info. Why I didn’t just look on Wikipedia, I don’t know. > [@FatBaldGuy](#): > > The most workable solution is obvious. Everyone flies naked. 😉 Yes, [this documentary](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbi6y3KnAUo&feature=related)proves that that’s an excellent solution. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/workable-affordable-air-travel-safety/524370/20 "2010-01-11T04:27:53Z")
> [@CutterJohn](#): > > Bombs can’t be stopped, period. Sooner or later they will figure out that nobody can see _inside_ the body, and if you’re going to die anyway, no reason not to simply have it implanted. Painful no doubt, but that would just make the sacrifice more meaningful. We could just do the “Total Recall” security system and have everyone walk through a fluoroscope. 'Course, with the radiation exposure issues, it might be just as practical to dump Cobalt isotopes over the top ten or so demographic regions likely to produce airport-attacking terrorists. No humans, no problems.