# Worker fired for Kerry sticker---sigh. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 13, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316 "2004-09-13T21:45:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/41 "2004-09-15T10:55:31Z")
> [@Random](#): > > Cite, please? Unless eye color is found to be a pretext for race-based firing, it’s not a protected class. Skin color (race) is a protected class. Eye color is not. Could one legally equate eye color with race or gender, all of them being immutable physical characteristics? > [@](#): > > She was fired because she parked her car, with a political bumpersticker, one someone else’s property. Do I agree with the firing? No. It’s somewhat like a dress code. They can also fire you for wearing the wrong clothes, or even the wrong hairstyle, facial hair or whatever, but I think it’s reprehensible that the employer is not required to justify the firing in terms of how not doing so would have damaged the day-to-day operation of the plant. I feel the same way about dress codes, with some allowances for reasonable standards. The basic message here, to my mind, is it sucks to be an employee, or anyone else who is dependent on the whims of others. > [@](#): > > Again, we’re not talking about voting. We’re talking about political advertisement. It’s not bribery to pay the New York Times to carry a political ad, and it’s not wrongful for me to refuse to allow someone to put a campaign sign on my front lawn. Similarly, if I don’t want a car on my property with a political bumper sticker, I’m within my rights to tell the car’s owner to get out. If it were just the matter of the car being parked there, couldn’t he have told her she had to park it on the street? Probably that still would have resulted in a disagreement and, ultimately, a dismissal, but it would have made the employer look marginally better in my eyes. I wonder if there were other job performance issues with this woman? [aside]And what’s with this Gaddis deciding to become an insulation manufacturer after all those years of law school? ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/42 "2004-09-15T14:37:34Z")
In Dilbert’s company’s lunchroom … Asok the naive intern: “The best thing about living in the U.S. is that I’m free to criticize the government!” Pointy-haired boss: “Actually, I’d fire you.” Asok: “Um, I meant away from work.” PHB: “I’d fire you for that, too.” Asok: 😕 “May I express enjoyment of my sandwich?” PHB: (shrugs) “It’s a free country.” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/43 "2004-09-15T15:37:54Z")
I agree that Kerry hiring the woman was very cool. I do wish, however, that he would make proper political hay out of it. “Here’s my answer to your Patriot Act, Mr. Bush. Why don’t you let Americans speak their minds?” Or something to that effect. Also, I wonder what happens to the woman after the election. Political appointments are notoriously fickle. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/44 "2004-09-15T15:41:18Z")
It seems that the lawyers here are in agreement that nothing illegal was done. Does the worker have a valid civil case? I seem to remember that most wrongfull termination cases are heard as civil cases and not as a criminal matter. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/45 "2004-09-15T17:05:03Z")
No civil claim. That’s what we’ve been addressing in this thread. (The only part of the discussion that involved a criminal penalty was that involving the bribery/voting intimidation statutes.) ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/46 "2004-09-15T17:11:19Z")
Am I the only one who wants to sneak into the parking lot of Mr. Geddes’ company and slap a fat “Kerry/Edwards” bumper sticker on his personal vehicle? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/47 "2004-09-15T18:21:24Z")
> [@](#): > > No civil claim. That’s what we’ve been addressing in this thread. (The only part of the discussion that involved a criminal penalty was that involving the bribery/voting intimidation statutes.) Well **Random** it wasn’t that clear to me. > [@](#): > > Depending on the state, it is still illegal to dispatch someone based on voting status. > [@](#): > > Is there a precedent (outside of the public policy decisions which do not apply here) for this being illegal? > [@](#): > > Seriously, I’m not an expert on all areas of employment law, but IAAL, I’m in the right state, I do know First Amendment law, and this is a fairly basic question. > > Yes, the firing is legal. > [@](#): > > As a comparison however, isn’t it usually illegal to offer someone a bribe/benefit for voting in favor of candidate X? If so, how much difference is there really between punishing someone for failure to vote your way as rewarding someone for voting in your favor? > [@](#): > > It may not be illegal, but it sure as HELL is unethical. These are just some of the quotes, I got tired of looking. Although after review some posts were specific to a civil claim most were asking if it was “legal”. I was just trying to clarify it for myself. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/48 "2004-09-15T18:53:24Z")
Just because something is not criminal does not meant it is legal. _Illegal_ and _criminal_ do not mean exactly the same things. The latter is a subset of the former. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/49 "2004-09-15T19:46:07Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Also, I wonder what happens to the woman after the election. Political appointments are notoriously fickle. I know what you mean, **Liberal** (and others who have voiced similar concerns). But, obviously, having a job _almost immediately_ after this incident is much better than trying to quickly find another one. I look at it this way: at least now she has until November (at least…?) to find a different job. Had Kerry not made the offer, she wouldn’t have that “luxury”. I also agree: awesome move by Kerry. As far as the legality/ethics involved with the firing… it’s one of those scenarios that I just always assumed was legal, only due to some kind of loophole (or what-not) in the system. Legal or not, **Guin** is right-- I really don’t see how people like this can live with themselves. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/50 "2004-09-15T21:03:39Z")
> [@Cluricaun](#): > > Am I the only one who wants to sneak into the parking lot of Mr. Geddes’ company and slap a fat “Kerry/Edwards” bumper sticker on his personal vehicle? I certainly hope so. > [@LilShieste](#): > > I know what you mean, Liberal (and others who have voiced similar concerns). But, obviously, having a job almost immediately after this incident is much better than trying to quickly find another one. I look at it this way: at least now she has until November (at least…?) to find a different job. Had Kerry not made the offer, she wouldn’t have that “luxury”. What makes you think she has it now? Kerry might be expecting her to, you know, work. Whether she’s forty hours at the plant or forty hours in the rented storefront, she’s still preoccupied. ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/51 "2004-09-15T21:13:18Z")
Even if the firing isn’t criminal, and even if it isn’t against any civil law, unless Alabama is different from most other states she can still sue for wrongful termination. If she gets a shark of a lawyer (John Edwards could no doubt recommend one) all she has to do is put her case before almost any jury, and she can almost count on a big judgement against her asshole former boss. More likely a nice settlement. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/52 "2004-09-15T21:37:41Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > What makes you think she has it now? Kerry might be expecting her to, you know, work. Whether she’s forty hours at the plant or forty hours in the rented storefront, she’s still preoccupied. What’s the unemployment rate in her area of the state? Could be that she would have been **un** employed until November. At least she has a job now. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/53 "2004-09-15T21:50:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Illegal and criminal do not mean exactly the same things. The latter is a subset of the former. In my dictionary the latter is a synonym of the former. I take it that you mean that to a lawyer there is a different legal definition. You may understand it but reading through the posts it seems that there has been a lot of mixing of the two definitions. To be more specific I will ask is this action a tort? Is it impossible to sue for wrongfull termination in this case or is just very difficult to win? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/54 "2004-09-15T21:56:20Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > What’s the unemployment rate in her area of the state? Could be that she would have been **un** employed until November. At least she has a job now. True, but as I said, my concern is about post-November. Were I she, I’d be thinking about it. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/55 "2004-09-16T00:30:50Z")
> [@DesertGeezer](#): > > Even if the firing isn’t criminal, and even if it isn’t against any civil law, unless Alabama is different from most other states she can still sue for wrongful termination. If she gets a shark of a lawyer (John Edwards could no doubt recommend one) all she has to do is put her case before almost any jury, and she can almost count on a big judgement against her asshole former boss. More likely a nice settlement. You’re talking nonsense. There’s no blanket cause of action for wrongful termination because the employer did something mean or unpopular. Your suggested “case” never gets to a jury, because the employer’s motion to dismiss is granted by the judge. If the judge is asleep, and the jury does award damages, it gets reversed on appeal. (See my previous response, which lays out the 3 exceptions to the employment at will standard.) If you have no clue about how the legal system works, you should avoid making claims like this. It just makes you look stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/56 "2004-09-16T01:10:06Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > In my dictionary the latter is a synonym of the former. I take it that you mean that to a lawyer there is a different legal definition. You may understand it but reading through the posts it seems that there has been a lot of mixing of the two definitions. To be more specific I will ask is this action a tort? Is it impossible to sue for wrongfull termination in this case or is just very difficult to win? Fair question. There’s actually a couple questions here. First, some basics. A tort is a civil wrong. Loosely speaking, a tort is a civil claim that’s not (a) a breach of contract claim, or (b) a cause of action created by statute. (I’m ignoring some obscure common law claims and the idea that some statutory claims are codified torts.) I said before that there are three main exceptions to the employment at will doctrine. The first exception prohibits firings because the employee being fired is a member of a protected class. I’m not an employment law expert, so no doubt I’ll miss a nuance or two, but it should come as no surprise to anyone that various statutes prohibit firings based on the employee’s race, gender, age, national origin or religion. An employee fired for one of these reasons has a civil cause of action. (I’m ignoring the administrative steps that the plaintiff must sometimes follow before he has asuch a right to sue.) I wouldn’t call such a lawusit a tort claim. Second exception is the public policy prohibition. Most of the cases here are ultimately based on a statute, either on express language in the statute, or by implication. I probably find some cases that aren’t, though. I suppose you could call these cases torts. Third exception is the breach of contract situation. These aren’t tort claims. Last question. No, it’s not impossible to sue, even if you don’t fit into one of these exceptions. Winning the case, or the fabled “settlement” is a different story. Any idiot can file a lawsuit, even **DesertGeezer**. People have filed suit against God and the Devil (real service of process problems here). Such nonsense cases are typically dismissed fairly quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/57 "2004-09-16T01:13:12Z")
…probably could find… ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/58 "2004-09-16T01:25:01Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > A large sign is a bit different than an average-sized bumper sticker. Were it a bumper sticker, like the story in question, I would not say a thing about it. Were it an ostentatiously large sign, seeing as its parked in front of my home, I would ask her to remove it or park in back. > > Now, parked off to the side of my disgusting, evil coffee shop where people come to drink that putrid, vomitous liquid (because employees have no business parking in front of a retail establishment)? I probably wouldn’t mind the sign, unless it was really, really big… in which case, it’s not comparable to the [bumper sticker] > > Again, not comparable. Were I to own a business, I would have a very, very strict dress code for employees. There would be no buttons, no flair, and no fucking nametags either. No facial piercings or tattoos, either. That’s a dresscode issue, which again, is totally fucking different than a small bumper sticker on a car in the parking lot. > > So why don’t you ask something comparable? > > Would I fire an employee for having a bumper sticker supporting that evil, if-there-were-a-God-he’d-have-painful-cancer human postule Bush? No. End of questioning. So it appears that you and I, in the three hypothetical situations, would react in the same way if we were the employers in question. We’d tolerate the bumper sticker, but not the button or large car sign. Where we appear to differ is what the law **should** should require in these instances. You believe that: > [@spectrum](#): > > Firing someone for having a political bumper sticker on their car, so long as the text of the sticker itself isn’t generally offensive (“Fuck Bush”), should damn well be illegal. I hope this boss chokes to death in a pool of his own vomit. In other words, you think that the First Amendment should be changed from this: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” to this: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. In addition, no employer shall prevent an employee from parking in the employer’s lot with a bumper sticker or any kind, unless such bumper sticker is too large or generally offensive.” Sorry, but I’d much rather that Congress and the courts focus their attention on other, more pressing issues. I don’t want my taxpayer dollars funding some guy in a robe trying to figure out whether the car sign is too big, or whether it’s “generally offensive”. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/59 "2004-09-16T01:35:18Z")
It seems to me that the employer’s actions here are at least coersive and would violate your principals, **Lib**. But I guess this shows the big flaw in your philosophy, that some people are more equal based on what they own. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316/60 "2004-09-16T01:37:32Z")
Or principles, rather. I’m not sure about how your schools work in Libertopia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worker-fired-for-kerry-sticker-sigh/264316.md?page=4)