# Works of fiction with wonderfully detailed histories/backstories **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 28, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-of-fiction-with-wonderfully-detailed-histories-backstories/735969 "2015-10-28T14:33:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-of-fiction-with-wonderfully-detailed-histories-backstories/735969/21 "2015-10-31T19:01:17Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > It’s probably worth noting, however, that Middle Earth is fundamentally historically unrealistic - take for example the population of Eriador. You’ve got a pretty large area of land… and basically no one lives there. There’s The Shire, which hasn’t expanded since Buckland was founded, you’ve got Bree-land, which is like, 5 villages of not especially large size… and then…nothing. This is not the sort of environment that persists for as long as it is supposed to have done so. Either these people should have died out, or they should have spread out, because that’s what humans do. I thought that was Galadriel doing that–she and the other elves were trying to hold the world static and the destruction of the One Ring allowed things to move forward again. Wasn’t that the whole point of the “diminishing” bit? That the Elves would stop futzing around with trying to preserve Middle Earth like a fly in amber and things would start again? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-of-fiction-with-wonderfully-detailed-histories-backstories/735969/22 "2015-10-31T19:58:39Z")
They were trying to do that, perhaps, and their Rings gave them some measure of success, but only in their own lands. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-of-fiction-with-wonderfully-detailed-histories-backstories/735969/23 "2015-11-01T07:19:16Z")
> [@Scytheria](#): > > My vote goes for **Skyrealms of Jorune** , an almost-forgotten role playing world that was briefly seen in the early 1980s. Richly (and peculiarly) detailed, with beautiful illustrations - it was utterly unique and deserves to be resurrected. If you can get hold of the second edition sourcebooks, you’ve struck gold. Type ‘Jorune’ into a search engine, however, and you’ll still find many of the gorgeous illustrations. I own Jorune, but although it was quite unique in its style and praiseworthy, the setting is nowhere near as detailled as that of the aforementioned Glorantha was (\*). Greg Stafford spent years working on his world , and only turned it into a game because he saw an opportunity when RPGs appeared. (\*)especially the myths/religion parts which are the main thing that make it unique and fascinating. I’m yet to see any imaginary world (novel or game) where mythology doesn’t appear laughably simplistic by comparison. The rest of the setting, even though original in many ways, including fairly intriguing new takes on old tropes (like dwarves, elves or trolls that have few to do with their usual depictions), isn’t particularly outstanding, in particular regarding the weirdly juxtaposed cultures (Orlanthis are basically Celts, Kraloreans Chinese, etc…bronze-age cultures coexist for some reason with late middle-ages ones…). Imaginary settings, although maybe rarely as detailled, are frequently as good as and often better than Glorantha from this point of view. It’s very clear that Stafford’s interest in religious myths, obscure mythical history, how people perceive their place in the world and explain their traditions, what drives their cultural attitudes, etc… totally eclipsed his interest in creating a coherent “current” world. Presumably because this part was an afterthought required when he made his world into a game. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-of-fiction-with-wonderfully-detailed-histories-backstories/735969/24 "2015-11-01T12:13:07Z")
There’s also the world of Tamriel from the Oblivion video games. I’ve only played Oblivion IV, but even in just that part of the world you can explore, you see a huge amount of detail. You have Cyrodiil from part IV, but there is also Morrowind, Skyrim, and all the other provinces, and the stories from the other games that take place in these other places. The world of Tamriel gets huge quickly when you start bringing all these together. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-of-fiction-with-wonderfully-detailed-histories-backstories/735969/25 "2015-11-02T14:15:52Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > (Orlanthis are basically Celts, Kraloreans Chinese, etc…bronze-age cultures coexist for some reason with late middle-ages ones…). You’re quite a bit behind the times. As Moon Design (now Chaosium, I guess) developed the setting bible _the Guide to Glorantha_, much of the real world analogs inserted by past authors have been stripped out. The Orlanthi are no longer Nordic Celts; they’re their own thing, and the visual depictions don’t look like kilt-wearing Celts in Viking hats. And the West - where you’re getting those “late middle-ages ones” - is now firmly \*non-\*Medieval, and in the bronze age; the knights and bishops are no longer a thing. The Kralori haven’t been much detailed, however, so Kralorela still comes across as crypto-China. If you want to get a good visual depiction of Glorantha nowadays, check out the [Prince of Sartar](http://www.princeofsartar.com/) webcomic. Current arc is focused on Esrolia, where instead of the Orlanthi being some Kelto-Nordic hybrid, seem to take a lot of visual clues from (bronze age) Minoan culture. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-of-fiction-with-wonderfully-detailed-histories-backstories/735969/26 "2015-11-02T14:31:57Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > There’s The Shire, which hasn’t expanded since Buckland was founded That’s my two nitpicks with Middle Earth: Buckland and Mordor are the two places where it’s obvious that it was a gradually developing fictional place. Buckland is so small compared to the rest of Middle-Earth and The Shire that there is no reason it should be so important: it _looks_ to me like Tolkien first created the world between Hobbiton and Buckland, and then expanded it outward, Buckland being stuck in its original, small, size. I have no evidence for this though. Mordor, however, looks like it was originally created as a small mountain range near Udun, and then progressively expanded during writing, not by just increasing the size wholesale, but adding _another_ encircling range extending the previous one, _several times_. I seem to recall that this is indeed what did happen. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-of-fiction-with-wonderfully-detailed-histories-backstories/735969/27 "2015-11-02T23:00:22Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > You’re quite a bit behind the times. As Moon Design (now Chaosium, I guess) developed the setting bible _the Guide to Glorantha_, much of the real world analogs inserted by past authors have been stripped out. The Orlanthi are no longer Nordic Celts; they’re their own thing, and the visual depictions don’t look like kilt-wearing Celts in Viking hats. And the West - where you’re getting those “late middle-ages ones” - is now firmly \*non-\*Medieval, and in the bronze age; the knights and bishops are no longer a thing. The Kralori haven’t been much detailed, however, so Kralorela still comes across as crypto-China. Indeed I’m behind the times. I’m happy with these changes, but on the other hand, I’m wondering what they kept of Stafford’s original world. In the past, various editors had a tendancy to “normalize” this universe and to make into something more in line with usual medfan backgrounds. ETA : I see that the guide to Glorantha is this think I checked in the past when its creation was in progress. From what I read back then,it seemed to be intented to be very faithful to Stafford’s spirit, so I guess the kept all (probably only most) of what made it unique. On the other hand, I discover at the same time that it’s already out of print. I guess I should have followed this more closely. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-of-fiction-with-wonderfully-detailed-histories-backstories/735969/28 "2015-11-02T23:23:37Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I really dig the Song of Ice and Fire backstory. The whole thing is very immersive. A whole world, with continents, ancient civilizations, a variety of thriving cultures and all sorts of history. It’s the part I like best about the series, I think. The politics of Westeros is interesting and all, but I get the feeling it’s going to be mostly irrelevant by the end of the series. Indeed. George R.R. Martin has created a crap load of history that just gets barely referenced into the Song of Ice and Fire books. At first you think, oh he’s just coming up with some random names and cool sounding rebellions and then you realize that he’s actually come up with the entire history of those rebellions and battles, who is involved with them, who their ancestors are, who their descendants are, etc. It’s incredible to go to someplace like A Wiki of A Song of Ice and Fire and just see how detailed the heraldry is. And that doesn’t even count the Dunk & Eggs stories or the Dance of Dragons (different from the 5th book in the ASOIAF series). ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-of-fiction-with-wonderfully-detailed-histories-backstories/735969/29 "2015-11-02T23:34:55Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > ETA : I see that the guide to Glorantha is this think I checked in the past when its creation was in progress. From what I read back then,it seemed to be intented to be very faithful to Stafford’s spirit, so I guess the kept all (probably only most) of what made it unique. > > On the other hand, I discover at the same time that it’s already out of print. I guess I should have followed this more closely. As I understand it, Greg chose Jeff and the others at Moon Design to hand over the Glorantha legacy to, and worked closely with them to make sure their work fit his legacy. I don’t think Glorantha suffered as much as, say, Tékumel did with different publishers, but it’s had issues. And, of course, Greg and Sandy tapped the Moon Design guys to take over the Chaosium legacy, too. The Guide is lovely, and unfortunately unlikely to be printed again any time soon. Too freakin’ big for print-on-demand to be reasonable. The pdf is quite servicable, except for the resolution on the maps (better in the Argan Argar Atlas pdf). By the way, for anyone interested in Tékumel, there is now a pdf of _Swords and Glory_ available at DriveThruRPG. It’s unfortunately a low-quality scan of the original, with handwritten accent marks all over the place, but at least it’s _available_ now. After Christopher Tolkien’s HOME series for Middle-Earth, Glorantha and Tékumel are probably the worlds that have had the most setting information made available. (although Tékumel info is bonkers for how out-of-print and unavailable most of the stuff is.) ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-of-fiction-with-wonderfully-detailed-histories-backstories/735969/30 "2015-11-04T14:22:18Z")
For a non-game based work, and older in some ways than Tolkien’s, I’d suggest [Austin Tappan Wright](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Tappan_Wright)’s [Islandia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islandia_%28novel%29). He worked on it, and it’s background, all his life and a much shortened version was only published years after his death. It’s not a fantasy world, merely an extra, uncolonised island in the real world, a bit like if Atlantis had really existed. It’s set in 1910 and concerns the arrival of the new American Consul, his exploration of the Kingdom’s culture, etc. and the Kingdom’s resistance to increased trade with the rest of the world. It’s an interesting read, but quite slow. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-of-fiction-with-wonderfully-detailed-histories-backstories/735969/31 "2015-11-04T21:29:45Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > That’s my two nitpicks with Middle Earth: Buckland and Mordor are the two places where it’s obvious that it was a gradually developing fictional place. Buckland is so small compared to the rest of Middle-Earth and The Shire that there is no reason it should be so important: it _looks_ to me like Tolkien first created the world between Hobbiton and Buckland, and then expanded it outward, Buckland being stuck in its original, small, size. I have no evidence for this though. I…think you must be thinking of somewhere else? Buckland is basically a PART of The Shire, it’s just on “The wrong side of the Brandywine river”. It’s small…because it is small? And it’s not very important? > [@](#): > > Mordor, however, looks like it was originally created as a small mountain range near Udun, and then progressively expanded during writing, not by just increasing the size wholesale, but adding _another_ encircling range extending the previous one, _several times_. I seem to recall that this is indeed what did happen. Not…really sure why this should be a problem? Seems like a really random thing to get annoyed at? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-of-fiction-with-wonderfully-detailed-histories-backstories/735969.md?page=1)