# Works that aren't Christian, but pretend that they are (Matrix 3 spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 3, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732 "2003-12-03T16:45:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/1 "2003-12-03T16:45:50Z")
Inspired by [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=226888), I was wondering what films/books/etc. tend to wrap themselves in Christian themes while not actually being Christian? Let me say that this may be a bit of a judgment call. It’s conceivable that some authors were trying to convey a genuine Christian message, but really did a superficial job of it. I suppose this might still qualify as a “Christian work.” (I suppose “Pilgrim’s Progress” by John Bunyan comes to mind. The whole thing reeks of blatant metaphors. Maybe it’s a beloved classic work, but I hated the thing.) What I’m going for here are works that, say, borrow Christian elements, but leave you scratching your head as to _why_ it did so. My best example would be _The Matrix: Revolutions_. The whole film left a bad taste in my mouth, but I was particularly annoyed at (what I felt was) the meaningless Christian imagery at the end. Neo sacrifices himself, his body assumes a “crucified” shape, and the giant head mumbles “it is finished.” Yeah, great. I’m surprised that they didn’t have a calendar show up somewhere that said it was Good Friday, or that the Sentinels didn’t demand 30 pieces of silver for admission to see the big giant head. I left the theatre practically screaming, “WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT?!” (Sidebar: oddly, I thought the first _Matrix_ was passable as a Christian work, although I won’t say this conclusively, since I really don’t know whether the Washowski (sp?) brothers were going for that, or if it was just more superficial philosophy. Suffice it to say that Neo seemed to have a Christ-like role in that he tries to effect a _moral_ change in people. Neo’s job was to open people’s eyes to the trappings of the Matrix, as Christ was to free people from the trappings of sin. Was this the intent of the film? I don’t know, but it might be a useful metaphor to explain Christianity to a teenager who likes movies where a lot of shooting happens. :D) Oh, yeah: and the _Left Behind_ books that I’ve read sucked. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/2 "2003-12-03T17:14:07Z")
I think it’s interesting that _E.T._–directed by Spielberg who is Jewish–has many Christ-like characteristics (he has powers including healing, his existance is doubted by some but he gains a loyal following, he seemingly dies only to be miraculously resurrected). ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/3 "2003-12-03T17:28:35Z")
> [@](#): > > _ResIpsaLoquitor:_ > The whole film left a bad taste in my mouth, but I was particularly annoyed at (what I felt was) the meaningless Christian imagery at the end. Neo sacrifices himself, his body assumes a “crucified” shape, and the giant head mumbles “it is finished.” Well, I guess that’s a movie I don’t need to see now. What happened to spoiler warnings? ---
**Author:** ![BrandyFine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrandyFine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandyFine)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/4 "2003-12-03T17:33:32Z")
Left Behind sure did suck, but I don’t know why that makes it “pretend” Christian. Pilgrim’s Progress was an allegory and was full of metaphors, but the meaning was very deeply Christian and the author was quite sincere. There was nothing shallow about it, in my estimation. Not my cup of tea either though. I’m much fonder of things like the Chronicles of Narnia which ironically enough aren’t meant to be allegories, though they are probably even deeper than allegories since they start with the assumption that Christianity is perfectly true and simply imagine what **would or might** happen in other circumstances, given that truth. I’d say maybe The Stand. ---
**Author:** ![cbawlmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cbawlmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbawlmer)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/5 "2003-12-03T18:24:22Z")
The Chronicles of Narnia aren’t meant as allegories? _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe_ and _The Last Battle_ are the very definition of the term. Anyway, when I read the thread title, I thought the OP meant something like Jack Chick tracts (yeah, I’m sure what Jesus really meant was that people should be creepy hatemongers) or bands that are pseudo-religious to cash in on the “I love mediocre-to-bad music about Jesus” market. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/6 "2003-12-03T18:47:30Z")
Can a mod add the word SPOILERS to the thread title? The Matrix ending laid out in the OP kinda ruined my day too. ---
**Author:** ![BrandyFine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrandyFine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandyFine)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/7 "2003-12-03T18:54:23Z")
No, they are not intended to be allegories at all. Lewis was pretty adamant about that. I’ve read a lot of his nonfiction and autobiographical things which is why it came to mind specifically, as did “The Pilgrim’s Regress” which he did write as an actual allegory. Rather than hitting my bookshelves I found a link on it. [http://members.aol.com/thompsonja/faq9.htm](http://members.aol.com/thompsonja/faq9.htm) Another makes this point: “Indeed, there is a similar problem with applying the word ‘allegory’ to Narnia in the first place. Saying ‘Aslan is Jesus’ misses the point of the books: Aslan works precisely because he is not Jesus—because there are no stained glass windows and teachers and stupid hymns telling us we ought to love him. Saying ‘Aslan is not Jesus, its just a story, just a fantasy, just entertainment’ (as one contributer to the C.S Lewis usenet group did) misses the point in just the opposite way. Aslan both is and is not Jesus; the books both do an do not have order.” [http://www.aslan.demon.co.uk/narnia.htm](http://www.aslan.demon.co.uk/narnia.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/8 "2003-12-03T18:54:58Z")
Yeah, thanks for the spoiler warning. Much appreciated. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/9 "2003-12-03T18:55:16Z")
Rev. Lovejoy: I remember another gentle visitor from the heavens, he came in peace and then died, only to come back to life, and his name was E.T., the Extra-terrestrial. I loved that little guy. I remember Mike Nichols talking about how people interpreted Benjy Braddock as a satirical Christ figure in the church at the closing of _The Graduate_ because he stretches his arms out crucifix-like when calling for Elaine from the organ loft. Nichols said that the reason Dustin Hoffman was positioned that way was that was the only way he could bang on the glass of the window for the desired audio & visual effect. ---
**Author:** ![BrandyFine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrandyFine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandyFine)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/10 "2003-12-03T19:04:06Z")
Ok I’m not trying to be a nudge, seriously, so please don’t take it that way, AG. It’s just that I saw some Nichols interviews and he said he **hated** the fact that Hoffman had to do that stupid position. They wanted him pounding on it the way you would expect him to in real life. The reason they did it was because the church had had that particular glass donated to them by parishioners they cared about and they were unwilling that it should break. So even though the filmmakers begged and promised that they would pay for any damage if it broke, they said no way. He said well how is he supposed to bang on the glass and be sure not to break it? They came up with the stupid idea that if he did it with his arms widespread like that and only bent at the wrists, it probably wouldn’t break. Take it for what it’s worth, he may have said other things at other times. That was on my 25th Anniversary edition of The Graduate though. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/11 "2003-12-03T20:02:59Z")
**Age Quod Agis** you twit, I didn’t read the whole OP, but your quote did the spoiler for me. If ya going to call for a spoiler tag use please use one yourself 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/12 "2003-12-03T21:09:58Z")
What’s Christian about the “Left Behind” books? AFAIK, they’re based on various recent analyses of some chunks of the Bible (mostly Revelations), which are, to put it mildly, open to other interpretation … and their theology, in terms of mainstream Christianity, seems to be decidedly shaky. (And, eh, I haven’t seen _The Matrix_ either, but I’m not losing any sleep over that spoiler … ) ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/13 "2003-12-03T21:25:19Z")
Donnie Darko’s got a bunch of Christian imagery. But why not? Even if the filmmaker’s not Christian, I’m sure, if he’s American, he was bombarded with Christian symbolism and stories throughout his life (many of which were, of course, were borrowed from other religions). ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/14 "2003-12-03T22:42:04Z")
Ah, shiznap. Can a mod add a spoiler warning to the thread tag for me? ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/15 "2003-12-04T01:32:01Z")
> [@](#): > > _Bippy the Beardless:_ > **Age Quod Agis** you twit, I didn’t read the whole OP, but your quote did the spoiler for me. If ya going to call for a spoiler tag use please use one yourself. D’oh!I’m an idiot! ---
**Author:** ![dangergene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@dangergene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangergene)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/16 "2003-12-04T02:10:37Z")
the whole Narnia Chronicles as allegory thing was almost explained to me by an over-zealous scripture dude when I was in grade school, lo-those many years ago. I say, ‘almost’ cos his ‘explanation’ was, ‘oh, those are based on the bible, you know’, and left it at that. My atheistic upbringing and child-of-science lifestyle never pushed me to probe further, but I have a good grasp of biblical history and the contruction of the faith from an outsiders standpoint. So… my question is this. On the Two Towers extended edition, one of thev featurettes talks about Tolkien being a devout christian and C.S.Lewis being an atheist. So was Narnia a psuedo-allegory from the standpoint that ‘these are interesting myths and the concept can be wrapped into a more complex fantasy tale?’ or um… what? Why would an atheist (who disavows the existance of a higher power, rather than an agnostic who claims to not know either way) write a book that is allegorical? Or should I read through those links before posting this? I don’t know, and this is the SMDB, so… can anyone elighten this little heathen? ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/17 "2003-12-04T02:18:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BrandyFine \* > \*\*No, they are not intended to be allegories at all. Lewis was pretty adamant about that. I’ve read a lot of his nonfiction and autobiographical things which is why it came to mind specifically, as did “The Pilgrim’s Regress” which he did write as an actual allegory. Rather than hitting my bookshelves I found a link on it. > > [http://members.aol.com/thompsonja/faq9.htm](http://members.aol.com/thompsonja/faq9.htm) > > Another makes this point: “Indeed, there is a similar problem with applying the word ‘allegory’ to Narnia in the first place. Saying ‘Aslan is Jesus’ misses the point of the books: Aslan works precisely because he is not Jesus—because there are no stained glass windows and teachers and stupid hymns telling us we ought to love him. Saying ‘Aslan is not Jesus, its just a story, just a fantasy, just entertainment’ (as one contributer to the C.S Lewis usenet group did) misses the point in just the opposite way. Aslan both is and is not Jesus; the books both do an do not have order.” > > [http://www.aslan.demon.co.uk/narnia.htm](http://www.aslan.demon.co.uk/narnia.htm) \*\* I might be being slow here, but isn’t that pretty much what an allegory is? Roughly, putting the same ideas into a different setting so people get them. Further, is it necessary to being allegory that you can’t enjoy the book until you get it? I can understand trying to avoid associating yourself with people who wrote bad books, but saying “You can enjoy the books without recognising Jesus=Aslan, and not everything in the books has a parallel, and he’s kept the essential Jesus, but changed all the inessential distracting trappings” says to me that this book uses allegory well, not that it doesn’t at all. Seriously, what am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![Journeyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/779978/32.png) [@Journeyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Journeyman)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/18 "2003-12-04T03:43:34Z")
**dangergene** , C.S. Lewis was an atheist for a part of his life, before he converted to Christianity. The Chronicles of Narnia are very clearly Christian metaphor; Lewis also wrote Mere Christianity, a rational defense of the religion. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/19 "2003-12-04T03:49:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BrandyFine \* > \*\* > Another makes this point: “Indeed, there is a similar problem with applying the word ‘allegory’ to Narnia in the first place. Saying ‘Aslan is Jesus’ misses the point of the books: Aslan works precisely because he is not Jesus—because there are no stained glass windows and teachers and stupid hymns telling us we ought to love him. Saying ‘Aslan is not Jesus, its just a story, just a fantasy, just entertainment’ (as one contributer to the C.S Lewis usenet group did) misses the point in just the opposite way. Aslan both is and is not Jesus; the books both do an do not have order.” > > [http://www.aslan.demon.co.uk/narnia.htm](http://www.aslan.demon.co.uk/narnia.htm) \*\* Actually, in “The Last Battle” they all but say he is. There’s a line or two after going into the “real” narnia about how they looked at aslan and he looked different, but they still recognized him. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732/20 "2003-12-04T05:14:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shade \* > … **I might be being slow here, but isn’t that pretty much what an allegory is? Roughly, putting the same ideas into a different setting so people get them.** … You’re not being slow at all, you just define allegory differently than Tolkien, who defined it differently than Lewis. Neither author was writing an allegory _by his definition_, but I think Narnia is much closer than Middle-earth to most people’s idea of allegory. There’s not much room to debate who represents Christ in Lewis’ books. Tolkien: > [@](#): > > " I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse ‘applicability’ with ‘allegory’; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." > > (and) > > “The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them.” Lewis: > [@](#): > > “By an allegory I mean a composition (whether pictorial or literary) in which immaterial realities are represented by feigned physical objects, e.g. a pictured Cupid allegorically represents erotic love (which in reality is an experience, not an object occupying a given area of space).” > > (and) > > 'The whole series works out like this: > > The Magician’s Nephew tells the Creation and how evil entered Narnia, > The Lion etc. - the Crucifixion and Resurrection, > Prince Caspian - restoration of the true religion after a corruption, > The Horse and His Boy - the calling and conversion of the heathen, > The Voyage of the Dawn Treader - the spiritual life (especially in Reepicheep), > The Silver Chair - the continuing war against the powers of darkness, > The Last Battle - the coming of Antichrist (the ape). The end of the world and the last judgement.’ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/works-that-arent-christian-but-pretend-that-they-are-matrix-3-spoilers/216732.md?page=2)