# World Champions who were not the best. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 6, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062 "2011-11-06T15:39:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/1 "2011-11-06T15:39:07Z")
The thread on the employment of the term World Champions in American sports got me thinking. Since for many sports the World Champion is decided by winning a tournament, not necessarily for being the best by some objective measure, there are many world champions who were not really the best in the business. Now, a winner might not remain the best throughout their reign, but what about at the time of crowning. Cricket. India 1983, Australia 1987, Pakistan 1992, Sri Lanka 1996 and India 2011. Association football. W Germany 1990, Argentina 1978, England 1966. Swiming Peter Van Den Hoofgensomethingortheother won the 100 and 200 meters gold in 2000 , but Thorpe was clearly the best. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/2 "2011-11-06T15:42:15Z")
Soccer: Germany 1954 ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/3 "2011-11-06T15:51:30Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Swiming Peter Van Den Hoofgensomethingortheother won the 100 and 200 meters gold in 2000 , but Thorpe was clearly the best. How do you figure that one? You talked about “being the best by some objective measure” in your OP. The best objective measure I can think of is to have the two compete head to head. The Olympics did just that. Not only did Hoogenbrand swim faster than Thorpe, he [broke the world record](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swimming_at_the_2000_Summer_Olympics). Just because you like Thorpe more doesn’t mean that he’s faster. I’m going to go with the guy with the fastest time, which was Hoogenbrand. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/4 "2011-11-06T15:51:47Z")
2011 Women’s soccer World Cup Champions Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/5 "2011-11-06T16:48:25Z")
I don’t think there is an “objectively the best” when it comes to team sports. First of all, even if there was some magical way to determine this, it would change from week to week any way. I say that the winner of the tournament to determine the World Champion is the best, period. Everything else is conjecture. As they say: That’s why you play the game! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/6 "2011-11-06T16:51:37Z")
[Yohan Blake](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yohan_Blake) won the 100 meters at the 2011 World Championships because Usain Bolt false started and was DQed. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/7 "2011-11-06T16:57:30Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > I don’t think there is an “objectively the best” when it comes to team sports. First of all, even if there was some magical way to determine this, it would change from week to week any way. I say that the winner of the tournament to determine the World Champion is the best, period. Everything else is conjecture. As they say: That’s why you play the game! You have team A and team B. Team A will beat team B 19 out of 20 times. Today just happens to be the 20th time. Which team is better? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/8 "2011-11-06T17:58:08Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > How do you figure that one? You talked about “being the best by some objective measure” in your OP. The best objective measure I can think of is to have the two compete head to head. The Olympics did just that. Not only did Hoogenbrand swim faster than Thorpe, he [broke the world record](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swimming_at_the_2000_Summer_Olympics). Just because you like Thorpe more doesn’t mean that he’s faster. I’m going to go with the guy with the fastest time, which was Hoogenbrand. I was actually rooting for Hoogenbrand, I never liked Thorpe. but, as the world championships the following year showed, Thorpe was streets ahead of Hoogie. The victory in the final was a one off. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/9 "2011-11-06T18:03:05Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > I don’t think there is an “objectively the best” when it comes to team sports. First of all, even if there was some magical way to determine this, it would change from week to week any way. I say that the winner of the tournament to determine the World Champion is the best, period. Everything else is conjecture. As they say: That’s why you play the game! Not world champions, but Greece won the 2004 European cup based upon stifling defensive performances, before falling quickly back into the mediocrity from whence they came. Fair play to them for winning, but not even their own mothers would pretend they were the best team in Europe at that time. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/10 "2011-11-06T18:03:40Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Cricket. India 1983, Australia 1987, Pakistan 1992, Sri Lanka 1996 and India 2011. Cricket is, of course, a messy one with the three very different types of game. Judging by the pig’s ear they made of their games against Wales and France, how about the All Blacks for this year’s Rugby World Cup? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/11 "2011-11-06T18:05:20Z")
Italy winning the world cup in 2006. France were the better team, hell probably, Portugal and Spain were better as well. but the Italians had an easy route to the Semis. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/12 "2011-11-06T18:05:55Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > Not world champions, but Greece won the 2004 European cup based upon stifling defensive performances, before falling quickly back into the mediocrity from whence they came. > > Fair play to them for winning, but not even their own mothers would pretend they were the best team in Europe at that time. And again, not World but Europe, Denmark in 1992. They didn’t even qualify for the finals, but due to the worsening situation in Yugoslavia that country was ejected and Denmark took their place. They then went on to win it. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/13 "2011-11-06T18:07:33Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Italy winning the world cup in 2006. France were the better team, hell probably, Portugal and Spain were better as well. but the Italians had an easy route to the Semis. And didn’t they make it past Australia due to a very dodgy late penalty? 2:10 into this video: https://www.youtube.com/embed/wicGKbufDzk?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/14 "2011-11-06T18:32:32Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I was actually rooting for Hoogenbrand, I never liked Thorpe. but, as the world championships the following year showed, Thorpe was streets ahead of Hoogie. The victory in the final was a one off. I don’t like that. By that logic, The New Orleans Saints didn’t deserve the 2010 Superbowl because the Green Bay Packers were better than them in 2011. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/15 "2011-11-06T18:35:28Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I don’t like that. By that logic, The New Orleans Saints didn’t deserve the 2010 Superbowl because the Green Bay Packers were better than them in 2011. it’s not a question of " deserving" Hoogie put out an exceptional performance and was well worthy of the gold, but the events of a year later displayed why Thorpe was better. ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/16 "2011-11-06T18:36:20Z")
Van der Hoogenband was clearly the better sprinter, so he rightfully won the 100m. Since Thorpe is more of a 400/200 specialist, the 200m was where they really competed and while Thorpe won more than VDH, the olympics weren’t axactly a one off. I think Denmark deserved the 1992 Euros, the only team close to them were the Dutch who they defeated on penalties. Both the Dutch and Denmark beat the Germans (runners up) with a two goal difference in that tournament. Greece 2004 however, claerly wasn’t the best team there. I would mention Germany 1974 as well, funnny how often the Germans win while being seen as not the best. Another one, the Dutch baseball team who have just won the world cup. They were the best team there, but few will think they are actually the best baseballing nation. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/17 "2011-11-06T18:47:10Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > it’s not a question of " deserving" Hoogie put out an exceptional performance and was well worthy of the gold, but the events of a year later displayed why Thorpe was better. No, they don’t. By any objective measure, Hoogenbrand was better than Thorpe _in 2000_. Thorpe being better in 2001 does not negate that fact just like the Packers being better in 2010 does negate the fact that the the Saints were better in 2009. Champions change from year to year. A “one off” might not have the extended career of someone else but that does not change the fact that for that particular year, they were absolutely the best. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/18 "2011-11-06T19:28:39Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > You have team A and team B. Team A will beat team B 19 out of 20 times. Today just happens to be the 20th time. Which team is better? How do you know team A would beat team B 19 out of 20 times unless they play those 20 games. **Jackknifed Juggernaut** is correct - the closest you can get is by defining the term “best” as the winner of the competition. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/19 "2011-11-06T19:33:25Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > How do you know team A would beat team B 19 out of 20 times unless they play those 20 games. > > **Jackknifed Juggernaut** is correct - the closest you can get is by defining the term “best” as the winner of the competition. They played each other 20 times. No, he is not correct. The winner of one game does not guarantee a team is better. Why don’t the Yankees with 162 games a year? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062/20 "2011-11-06T19:36:41Z")
What about a game where one team wins because of a bad call? They’re the better team? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-champions-who-were-not-the-best/602062.md?page=2)