# World Chess Championship Match 2018 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 11, 2018, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334 "2018-11-11T02:18:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/41 "2018-11-17T01:59:18Z")
Carlsen was in a difficult position but found a defensive fortress idea that worked to hold the draw. Along the way, there was one moment where computers show that Caruana had a way to break the fortress and force a win. But the win is extremely counterintuitive and essentially impossible for a human to find and play. Kasparov said on Twitter that he’d never have seen it in a real game, and would only have solved it as a chess problem by process of elimination, since there’s no obvious logic to the starting moves. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2018, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/42 "2018-11-17T02:43:48Z")
So, the game did actually reach a point where the computers were able to see a completely forced win? That is indeed interesting, and the fact that the best human players in the world couldn’t see it is yet another sign of just how much we meatbags have to learn about the game. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2018, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/43 "2018-11-17T03:07:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > … the fact that the best human players in the world couldn’t see it is yet another sign of just how much we meatbags have to learn about the game. It’s questionable whether we ever will - we don’t have anything comparable to Moore’s Law working for us. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2018, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/44 "2018-11-17T03:48:58Z")
It’s a forced win (mate in 36) for Caruana after Carlsen played 68.Bc4. And playing through the computer’s moves ([see here](https://www.chess.com/news/view/world-chess-championship-game-6-caruana-misses-nearly-impossible-win)) you can see what’s happening - black dances around with his bishop until white eventually is forced to leave the defence of his h-pawn. But the start of the winning procedure might be literally the last maneuver human players would consider. Putting your knight on g1 with the opponent’s bishop completely trapping it from g4 is exactly the kind of thing you normally want to avoid. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2018, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/45 "2018-11-17T04:36:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So does that mean that the position wasn’t winning after all, or just that Carlsen managed to hold out long enough for Caruana to screw up? If by “screw up” you mean “fritter away a won position through marginally less better moves than his opponent”, then yes. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2018, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/46 "2018-11-17T12:16:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So, the game did actually reach a point where the computers were able to see a completely forced win? That is indeed interesting, and the fact that the best human players in the world couldn’t see it is yet another sign of just how much we meatbags have to learn about the game. I did use to wonder whether having access to computers would render the game meaningless but…definitely not. Perversely, having the ability to instantly say definitively that a winning positions exists actually adds to the tension. Will either of them see it? How close can either of them come to the quasi-perfection of the computer? And of course, there is a face-to-face visceral and mental element to a human contest that silicon can’t replicate. A laptop is never of the verge of a mental breakdown so how much fun is there in that? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2018, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/47 "2018-11-17T12:56:18Z")
Wait, mate in _thirty-six_!? That’s how far out the computers were seeing? Even allowing for Moore’s Law, I would have expected that the best computers could completely plot out maybe 10 moves into the future. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2018, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/48 "2018-11-17T15:03:34Z")
It helps that the amount of material is so reduced. There are 7-piece tablebases available, and the position we’re discussing has 8 pieces, so the computer knows the evaluation of any position where a capture happens without having to calculate it. Also, if I understand correctly, the machine isn’t saying that 36 is the shortest forced mate, only that it’s possible to force mate at least that quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/49 "2018-11-17T15:46:50Z")
I love the headline at 538 [Chess World Rattled As Someone Nearly Wins Game](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/chess-world-rattled-as-someone-nearly-wins-game/). I almost get a hint of Onion… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/50 "2018-11-17T17:21:43Z")
OK, 8 pieces makes it reasonable that the computers would see it. But then again, it’s also few enough that I would have expected that the human ability to aggressively prune the move tree would also enable a human to see it. Except that, from what folks are saying, the winning move was one that would have been very quickly pruned. I expect that the top human players of 50 years hence will be leaps and bounds beyond where they are now, due to all of the lessons we’ll learn (and more importantly, unlearn) from computers. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/51 "2018-11-18T18:48:33Z")
Guess what? A draw. Only 5 classical games left now. The previous match in 2016 also started with 7 draws, before the challenger won game 8. So we can hope for a decisive game tomorrow :). ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/52 "2018-11-19T02:40:15Z")
Caruana has white for 3 of the 5 remaining games. It seems to be a common view that if the match goes to speed chess, his chances decline. So you’d imagine he’d be interested in cranking up his attack a bit. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/53 "2018-11-19T19:07:39Z")
Draw again. Caruana had a very promising position but played a strange 24th move, after which the game was headed quickly for a draw. This was the first game where white got a decent advantage from the opening. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/54 "2018-11-20T00:21:10Z")
[Five Thirty Eight observes](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/chess-world-rattled-as-someone-nearly-wins-game/): > [@](#): > > Chess World Rattled As Someone Nearly Wins Game ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/55 "2018-11-20T01:54:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Five Thirty Eight observes](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/chess-world-rattled-as-someone-nearly-wins-game/): See post #49. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2018, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/56 "2018-11-20T13:36:25Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > Draw again. Caruana had a very promising position but played a strange 24th move, after which the game was headed quickly for a draw. > > This was the first game where white got a decent advantage from the opening. This is why I can’t even comprehend the skill of top-level players. On the [Chess.com](http://Chess.com) stream after that pawn to h3 move was made Hikaru Nakamura immediately called it a terrible move. But to an awful player like me it looked totally innocuous, and maybe even good. Nakamura in general was just ridiculous fast at analyzing during that stream - it’s mind-boggling. One meme clip here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93grYim8kLc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93grYim8kLc) ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/57 "2018-11-21T18:38:37Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > draw. Three classical games left: Tomorrow, Caruana white. Saturday, Carlsen white. Monday, Caruana white. Tiebreaks if necessary are on the 28th. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/58 "2018-11-21T19:51:55Z")
But it’s not just Nakamura doing the analysis, right? I imagine that (unlike the players sitting across the board) he has access to a computer. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/59 "2018-11-21T21:20:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But it’s not just Nakamura doing the analysis, right? I imagine that (unlike the players sitting across the board) he has access to a computer. From what I can tell the guys doing the commentary are pretty explicit about when they are looking at a computer. That clip I linked to (and almost all of the “real time” analysis on the feed from what I can tell) is just the commentators opining and calculating without computer assistance (other than the computer board they are using, of course - no engine assistance is what I mean). You may be right, of course, but if they are using an engine to come up with their suggested lines they do a very good job of faking it. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2018, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334/60 "2018-11-22T00:24:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wait, mate in _thirty-six_!? That’s how far out the computers were seeing? Even allowing for Moore’s Law, I would have expected that the best computers could completely plot out maybe 10 moves into the future. Using chess tablebases, the position with - White King f7, Rook g7, Knight g8 - Black King b1, Knights c2 + c6 is mate in 262 moves. :eek:🆒 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-chess-championship-match-2018/824334.md?page=4)