# World Cup 2018 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 7, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615 "2018-06-07T18:09:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 103
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2043 "2018-07-15T19:20:55Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > ETA: Yeah Griezemann went down in a Neymaresque fashion but come on, it was a foul; yes the referee could have decided not to have called it, but it was a foul. PLus who told the Croats to have such a high line and CF as the last defender? Watch it again. Griezmann clearly throws himself to the ground without contact. He gets lightly touched after he’s almost on the ground already. Should have had a yellow for simulation. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2044 "2018-07-15T19:21:10Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > I don’t tend to rate one shot more than another. I don’t buy into players being “clutch” or whatever. So Robben or Higuain’s miss don’t mean a ton to me as far as Robben’s legacy or Messi’s legacy. I mean, but either Robben or Messi or Ronaldo on this France team and all three of them have WC victories. A title is a title. By all rights Messi should not even have reached the final of his first two CL, where he needed egregious officiating to even get there in 2009 and 2011. But no one disputes it. If Higuain had made three chances in three games in '14, '15 and '16 then Messi is currently considered the greatest of all time, rather than not even the greatest of his time. Those calls in CL go correctly, and Lionel’s trophy cabinet looks rather bare. > [@](#): > > But yeah, there’s a distribution of possible career paths that Mbappe has. Some are all time greats careers. Some aren’t. IMO, even if he’s only a Robben, we should regard that as a great career and not a failure because he’s not the best of all time. If he ends up like Pato or Robinho, then sure, be disappointed. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2045 "2018-07-15T19:24:40Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Watch it again. Griezmann clearly throws himself to the ground without contact. He gets lightly touched after he’s almost on the ground already. Should have had a yellow for simulation. Any link? Did not record the game, watched it at my parents and just got back. Maybe its FIFA refs apologising for the Zidane sending off in 2006? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2046 "2018-07-15T19:30:26Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Any link? Did not record the game, watched it at my parents and just got back. > Maybe its FIFA refs apologising for the Zidane sending off in 2006? [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HDlGC4sgmg) ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2047 "2018-07-15T21:10:22Z")
If Mbappe’s body type stays the same, and he can maintain that first step and speed, I think he will be an all-time great. We already know he can shoot, and create his own shot. In fact, that save by Subasic was a bit under-appreciated by the Fox announcers on the US broadcast. That ball was headed into the goal and would have been a highlight. The problem with 19-year olds is that their bodies are still changing. He will have to adjust his game if he gets thicker. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2048 "2018-07-15T21:13:25Z")
The 2022 odds are out: > **[Brazil opens as favorite to win 2022 World Cup](https://www.espn.com/chalk/story/_/id/24106166/brazil-opens-favorite-win-2022-world-cup)** > > The Westgate has made Brazil the favorite to win the 2022 World Cup. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2049 "2018-07-15T21:26:52Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Dude, you’re merely stating the obvious, and you do it over and over again. Everyone knows that tactics change when after a goal by either side. If you aren’t capable of factoring each situation into an assessment of who actually played better, that’s your problem. To say that the final score is the end-of-conversation is a naive viewpoint. In a game as low scoring as soccer, all sorts of random events cause a much wider range of possible outcomes versus other sports. The final score is actually pretty random. > > No, almost no one thinks that Belgium played better than Brazil. After the watching the semi-finals and final, Brazil really was the best team in this tournament. Neymar’s theatrics probably cost them the Cup. But that doesn’t mean that France don’t deserve the Cup. I do agree that, for the most part, the winner is deserving. Your opinions are noted. They are rejected as being out of touch with reality. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2050 "2018-07-15T21:34:15Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > So, FIFA guidance is that if your arm is in an “unnatural position” then it’s implied you meant to handle the ball by making yourself bigger or whatever. > > IMO, when jumping it’s completely natural for your arms to flail a bit. The only thing that , to me, makes it unnatural is that it seemed like his arms dropped quickly. Like maybe he was trying to get them down in order to hit the ball. However, I don’t think it’s clear that’s what happened as opposed to just normal arm movement while jumping. > > I’m not a fan of that penalty call, but I’m not that upset about it. The Griezman dive, on the other hand, was egregious. The penalty was clear. It was decidedly deliberate handling. He moves his arm down to contact the ball, and his outstretched hand is what he contacts it with. It wasn’t a natural position for his arm to be in, given his attempt to jump up. It was a penalty every day of the week, if spotted. This of course highlights the importance of VAR, because at speed, it’s not an easily spotted occurrence; the referee wouldn’t have seen it and the assistant might well have been blocked by the French player who was in front of Perišič. As for Griezman’s dive, it’s what I call a “half-dive”. Yes, no one actually makes contact. But, that’s because he’s jumped up to avoid the contact that most likely would have occurred, had he not tried to avoid it. As Alexi Lalas pointed out in the studio, it’s not necessary for contact to occur for there to be a foul; one of the direct free kick fouls under Law XII is carelessly challenging for the ball. But the “dive” part comes in when, having avoided the contact, the player proceeds to act as if there really was contact, by grabbing legs, feet, ankles, or something similar. That’s simulation, and that should be cautioned, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2051 "2018-07-15T21:45:31Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Your opinions are noted. They are rejected as being out of touch with reality. :dubious: Only by a vocal minority apparently not qualified to reject them. Others in this thread have agreed that Brazil played better than Belgium and Croatia better than France. Pretty much every thing I’ve said in this thread was either stated later by the experts on Fox. You know, people who actually played the game. Lalas agreed with me on the Kane penalty and on Brazil. Guus Hiddink in Croatia. The world’s betting markets did as well. So the :dubious: smiley is facing the wrong direction. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2052 "2018-07-15T22:01:42Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > It was decidedly deliberate handling. He moves his arm down to contact the ball, I dunno. I think his arm came down because that’s where something moves after it goes up. Not deliberately hitting the ball. > [@](#): > > It wasn’t a natural position for his arm to be in, given his attempt to jump up. Your opinion. Seems a very natural position to me given his jump. Which is why I hate the wording of the handball (sorry! handling!) rule. Soo damn subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2053 "2018-07-17T04:06:09Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Penalties require skill from both taker and GK and composure. When weighed against the health risks of the only better way to decide knockout matches, its a great compromise. In 1994 two of the greatest players to play their positions not only missed their PKs but put them over the bar. > > [https://youtu.be/jsOleoyrbFE](https://youtu.be/jsOleoyrbFE) > > PKs require footballing skill. No one said otherwise. It may be a footballing skill, but it’s not the same as play on the field. Still a crappy way to decide who advances. Not sure what your point is about great players missing PKs. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2054 "2018-07-17T04:20:30Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > No one said otherwise. It may be a footballing skill, but it’s not the same as play on the field. Still a crappy way to decide who advances. Not sure what your point is about great players missing PKs. Point being that after 120 minutes the body is breaking down and even one of the worlds best strikers can’t put the ball on goal. As mentioned above penalties use footballing skills to decide the match. Its also really exciting. How is it crappy when the alternative puts players health at risk? ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2055 "2018-07-17T23:55:10Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Point being that after 120 minutes the body is breaking down and even one of the worlds best strikers can’t put the ball on goal. Ok. So? Not sure why this is relevant. > [@madsircool](#): > > As mentioned above penalties use footballing skills to decide the match. Its also really exciting. How is it crappy when the alternative puts players health at risk? It’s crappy because it isn’t football. It’s a skill contest. Just because the alternatives are worse doesn’t mean it’s a good way to determine who advances. It’s just the least horrible way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2056 "2018-07-18T00:02:43Z")
I still like the approach of having the penalties prior to the match rather than after. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2057 "2018-07-18T01:19:42Z")
So, remember what I said about World Cup final ratings a bit ago (when I was savaged for it) - oh and yes I was talking more about US ratings > **[World Cup Final Hits Low, But Still Nears 18 Million](https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2018/07/world-cup-ratings-fox-telemundo-final/)** > > Following the general trend of World Cup ratings this year, Sunday's France-Croatia final hit lows on FOX and Telemundo -- but still put up healthy numbers. This is the lowest rated combined (English and Spanish) US World Cup final rating since 2002. Almost 10 million less viewers than 2014. Almost 7 million less viewers than, 2010. Yes, it began before noon Eastern Time (11am for the record, so 8am Western, but I was told that it wouldn’t matter due to it being the World Cup final, and of course about 50% of the US population does live in EST), but I still believe Croatia, not really a soccer power, being one of the two teams hurt interest. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2058 "2018-07-18T06:18:36Z")
Were there any changes to style of play in this world cup? I felt that teams pressed more aggressively for the ball, even strikers, so no-one had much time on the ball. But also, and perhaps because of this, there was more passing and fewer attempts to dribble round players. Teams would often pass the ball back from the attacking third right back to the defending third just to keep possession. “Route one”: long balls into the penalty area were rare. However…maybe I’m imagining things and none of this is actually any different from recent tournaments. And how play style might (unfortunately) change in the future: I think the VAR performed well actually, and made many important and correct decisions. However there were many false positive hand ball decisions. If it stays like this, players might start to take advantage. For example, if I’m in the penalty area but I can’t get a good shot and my teammates are either absent or surrounded, then why not chip the ball at one of the defenders’ torsos? Maybe I get a penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2059 "2018-07-18T09:10:24Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I think the VAR performed well actually, and made many important and correct decisions. However there were many false positive hand ball decisions. > If it stays like this, players might start to take advantage. For example, if I’m in the penalty area but I can’t get a good shot and my teammates are either absent or surrounded, then why not chip the ball at one of the defenders’ torsos? Maybe I get a penalty. That already happens now. Hell, I did that as a kid in the playground. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2060 "2018-07-19T03:27:47Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > That already happens now. Hell, I did that as a kid in the playground. The point is, until recently it would be rare as a deliberate tactic in professional football. If I chip the ball up at your arm, what’s supposed to happen is the referee waves play on. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2061 "2018-07-19T05:32:07Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The point is, until recently it would be rare as a deliberate tactic in professional football. > If I chip the ball up at your arm, what’s supposed to happen is the referee waves play on. What usually happens is that somebody points at their arm, the ref just waves them to continue, everybody finishes the play, and maybe the captain of the aggravated team complains afterwards. Or the whole team sometimes, because football. What I’ve seen happening with the VAR, at least in the final, is exactly the same, only the ref can check afterwards and give the foul or the penalty if needed. I don’t remember seeing the referee giving any false handballs after checking, to be honest. Of course, I haven’t watched even half the matches. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/2062 "2018-07-19T06:20:22Z")
I saw a case, it may have even been in the final, where the ball was kicked, at fairly close range, right at one player’s face. (I don’t mean to say it was deliberate; just that one player was attempting a lofted pass to a teammate just as a defender was coming to guard him.) He moved his arm slightly, just to prevent the ball from hitting his face, and got called for it. Is that as specified in the rules? The ball was going to hit him. I suppose it ricocheted in a different direction off his forearm than it would have off his face, but it still seems a bit harsh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615.md?page=102) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615.md?page=104)