# World Cup 2018 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 7, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615 "2018-06-07T18:09:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 87
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1722 "2018-07-11T04:01:26Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > You can certainly make the case that Ronaldo is a better player overall. I just thought it was interesting to see what the comparable rate was for Messi at the same point in Messi’s career given the “Lionel fucking who?” comment. > > Actually I was looking at calendar year earlier. If you look at it season by season Ronaldo had 1.05 G/game while Messi had 1.01 G/game. Ronaldo with 0.28 assists/game and Messi with 0.39 assists/game. > > Just insane stats all around. The worst season in that span is probably better than the best season for any other player in the world. I agree. Its not fair to Messi and his remarkable career to be dragged down by his international experience. Argentina have actually been very impressive…but always one win away from glory. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1723 "2018-07-11T04:02:01Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > JJ thinks that the team that had more hits and more runners left on base was better than the team that scored more runs. Or the team that had more passing yards was better than the team that scored more points. He doesn’t understand the point of the game. Dude, you’re an idiot. I run into many in my life, but this is one of the rare times that I need to point that out. I have to assume you’re new to each of these sports and don’t understand the differences. But you are very good at repeating baseless claims over and over again, perhaps even getting a proportion of the slack-jawed masses to start nodding their heads. Fox News could use you! > [@](#): > > Germany have also been better overall in the World Cup than Brazil. 12 finishes in the top three. This is one stat that has alluded him. What’s funny is that my only comments in this thread have been about the teams in this World Cup. You keep bringing up history, randomly alternating your data set between 4 years ago and 80 years ago. But just as a reminder, Brazil has 5 World Cups and have also made the final 8 in the last 7. No one else is even close. Also, to further play your game, Brazil has won 4 major international tournaments in the last 2 decades. Germany has 1. I repeat, Brazil 4 Germany 1. Since I think you also referenced the recent German Conferations Cup as some sort of evidence, I’ll remind you that Brazil won the previous 3. So make that Brazil 7 Germany 2. If you want to go back far enough to Germany’s last Euro win, then you throw in another Copa America and another Conferations Cup for Brazil. Brazil 9 Germany 3. > [@](#): > > Brazil’s last 4 international tourneys: > > Finished 4th (as the host nation) at the 2014 WC including the most humiliating host nation loss ever. > > Knocked out of the 15 CA by Paraguay in the first knockout round > > Finished 3rd in the group stage behind Peru and Ecuador in the 16 CA > > Knocked out in the quarterfinals in the 18 WC. > > Where is the dominance? This is a 4 year span that you’re referencing. You realize this, right? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1724 "2018-07-11T04:51:51Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > For the same ages and both playing in La Liga, Messi has a higher goals/game rate than Ronaldo. Ronaldo was going on 25 when he first came to La Liga. His stats are hurt by his first 2.5 seasons at United, where he played as a traditional winger. They were trying to turn him into David Beckham. Which he’s not. It’s when they freed him to go up forward that he became what he is. Messi was always on the forward line. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1725 "2018-07-11T08:43:56Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > But everyone will agree with you, it’s not been needed at all. In many ways VAR has been a nightmare for the South American footballing philosophy. I’m no expert so I stand to be correct but holding in the box is considered part of the art of defending. It may be why lots of South American observers saw the England penalty against Colombia as being unjust but many in Europe can’t understand why it is even a debate. When Maradona used his hand to score in 1986 it was considered less as cheating and more as cunning and clever and well played he also beat the referee. Very much part of the game. Rivaldo holding his head when the ball hit him in the chest was game play not a disgusting bit of cheating. Even the Brazilians mock Neymar’s antics but he comes from a culture where it is very much part of the sport to fool the referee, and also to intimidate the opposition. I’m NOT saying this doesn’t happen elsewhere, this sort of play happens in Europe, but it’s slightly more prevalent in South America. But you can’t play the referee when there’s an assistant sitting in front of a bank of TVs. And the South American teams didn’t seem to understand that this year. > > You could argue that VAR, and the way it is applies, comes from a European philosophy with little consideration on how it will disadvantage the South Americans. However I still think it’s a good thing. South American football can be some of the most skilful and exciting in the world. But too often they resort to spoil tactics - this comes when you are nervous or unconfident. All teams and players suffer from this, but South American teams seem to show it in this manner more than others. It’s a football philosophy thing and definitely not a comment on the character of the people of that part of the world - some of the friendliest I’ve ever met. But look what happened when Colombia stopped spoiling and were forced to come out and play. They were the better team! > > Brazil didn’t spoil to be fair, but their attempts to fool the referee lost them all sympathy. When they did get fouled they were like the boy who cried wolf and got nothing in return. > > So I hope we see a resurgent South America in Qatar. Where they play brilliant, skilful attacking football rather than trying to win with gamesmanship. As I say, everyone does it, but not all to the same extent. > > And on another point, VAR has made corners and free kicks much more important in this tournament, because the defenders can do less now than they could before. Even in today’s semi final, with all those amazing attacking players on the pitch, the winner came from a set piece. Good point well made, IMO - one of the best posts in the thread. Anyone disagree? ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1726 "2018-07-11T08:54:05Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > This is a 4 year span that you’re referencing. You realize this, right? But that’s everyone’s point. No one denies Brazil’s stella record in international competition, but they are living on past glories. Recent records are not good enough for a team of their reputation. They need to step up and do something now if they want to retain their shimmer. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1727 "2018-07-11T10:49:37Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Ronaldo was going on 25 when he first came to La Liga. His stats are hurt by his first 2.5 seasons at United, where he played as a traditional winger. They were trying to turn him into David Beckham. Which he’s not. It’s when they freed him to go up forward that he became what he is. > > Messi was always on the forward line. I completely understand the point you’re making about his time at ManU. I was comparing his time at Real Madrid with the Messi’s equivalent time at Barcelona. Apples to apples. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1728 "2018-07-11T11:52:23Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > I completely understand the point you’re making about his time at ManU. I was comparing his time at Real Madrid with the Messi’s equivalent time at Barcelona. Apples to apples. Messi turned 24 in the 2011-2012 off season. Ronaldo was already 24 and quite a lot when he came to RM. Messi was playing with one of the greatest teams of all time, even without him and had been playing in a dominant team his entire life. Its often forgotten that for Ronaldo, coming to RM was a step down in supporting cast, ManU had just won a hatrick of titles, and were perennial contenders in Europe while RM had won the square root of fuck all in the years before. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1729 "2018-07-11T12:05:01Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Its often forgotten that for Ronaldo, coming to RM was a step down in supporting cast, ManU had just won a hatrick of titles, and were perennial contenders in Europe while RM had won the square root of fuck all in the years before. I also think it worth pointing out that he has developed immensely as a player. Those six years at Man. U. were critical, without that experience he would not have been as good as he became. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1730 "2018-07-11T12:32:36Z")
Some sour grapes from Belgian players Courtois and Hazard. They accuse France of being anti-football. France did what they had to do to advance to the finals. > **[Belgium's Thibaut Courtois and Eden Hazard hit out at 'anti-football' France](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/11/belgiums-thibaut-courtois-and-eden-hazard-hit-out-at-anti-football-france)** > > Thibaut Courtois and Eden Hazard have launched stinging criticisms of France’s tactics following Belgium’s loss to Les Bleus in the semi-final of the World Cup ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1731 "2018-07-11T12:35:22Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Some sour grapes from Belgian players Courtois and Hazard. They accuse France of being anti-football. France did what they had to do to advance to the finals. > > [Belgium's Thibaut Courtois and Eden Hazard hit out at 'anti-football' France | World Cup 2018 | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/11/belgiums-thibaut-courtois-and-eden-hazard-hit-out-at-anti-football-france) I thought France were fantastic - in defence and in breakaways. If Belgium couldn’t beat them, then they need to look at themselves. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1732 "2018-07-11T12:38:27Z")
Deschamps is the fourth man to reach a World Cup final both as a player and head coach. Who are the other 3? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1733 "2018-07-11T12:42:32Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Deschamps is the fourth man to reach a World Cup final both as a player and head coach. Who are the other 3? Vogts in guessing would be one. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1734 "2018-07-11T12:44:45Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > I thought France were fantastic - in defence and in breakaways. If Belgium couldn’t beat them, then they need to look at themselves. I agree. Belgium were otherwise brilliant. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1735 "2018-07-11T12:45:03Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Some sour grapes from Belgian players Courtois and Hazard. They accuse France of being anti-football. France did what they had to do to advance to the finals. > > [Belgium's Thibaut Courtois and Eden Hazard hit out at 'anti-football' France | World Cup 2018 | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/11/belgiums-thibaut-courtois-and-eden-hazard-hit-out-at-anti-football-france) Incidentally maybe the Belgians should be grateful. I recall an interview with Beckenbuer where he said that losing a final is worse than losing in a Semi Final. A SF=_Had a great tournament_, a F=Y_ou lost a World Cup fina_l. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1736 "2018-07-11T12:54:39Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Vogts in guessing would be one. I won’t know the rest without cheating. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1737 "2018-07-11T12:55:05Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Deschamps is the fourth man to reach a World Cup final both as a player and head coach. Who are the other 3? Beckenbauer won as both. I’m guessing the other two lost one or both games. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1738 "2018-07-11T12:59:21Z")
Getting nervous now… ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1739 "2018-07-11T13:09:01Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Deschamps is the fourth man to reach a World Cup final both as a player and head coach. Who are the other 3? The men are 1. Zagallo: Player 1958, 1962, Manager: 1970, 1998\*. Also reached final as consultant in 1994 2. Beckenbauer: Player: 1966, 1974. Manager: 1986, 1990. 3. Rudi Voeller: Player: 1986, 1990. Manger 2002 4. Didi Dechamps: Player 1998, Manager: 2018. Beckenbauer and Zagallo are the only men to have won both as player and coach. Beckenbauer and Voeller are the only men to have lost a WC Final as player and coach. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1740 "2018-07-11T13:10:02Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Beckenbauer won as both. I’m guessing the other two lost one or both games. Mario Zagallo won as player for Brazil in 1958 and 1962, and as coach in 1970 ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615/1741 "2018-07-11T13:13:27Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The men are > > 1. Zagallo: Player 1958, 1962, Manager: 1970, 1998\*. Also reached final as consultant in 1994 > 2. Beckenbauer: Player: 1966, 1974. Manager: 1986, 1990. > 3. Rudi Voeller: Player: 1986, 1990. Manger 2002 > 4. Didi Dechamps: Player 1998, Manager: 2018. > > Beckenbauer and Zagallo are the only men to have won both as player and coach. > Beckenbauer and Voeller are the only men to have lost a WC Final as player and coach. Great trivia question. I had forgotten about Voeller. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615.md?page=86) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-2018/815615.md?page=88)