# World Cup qualification matches **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 26, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036 "2013-03-26T19:37:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/21 "2013-03-28T15:55:54Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Forgive me but I have to laugh at this. Besides Germany and Spain, the other Euro countries arent any better than the USA or Mexico and the mid-level teams are also pretty good…look how many of their players play in Europe. The Euros wouldnt like it if there was global, as opposed to regional, WC qualifying. BTW, Holland should have missed out on Euro 2012 too. You are funny:). Holland only lost one game in qualifying for Euro 2012 and that was the last one, when they were already sure to win the group. In qualifying this is the only game the Dutch didn’t win in the last three qualifying campains. Qualifying for SA 2010, won every game; qualifying for Euro 2012, won everything apart from the last game when it didn’t really matter anymore; qualification for WC 2014, six wins out of six games so far. Up to the 2012 tournament the only meaningful games they didn’t win since Euro 2008 were the WC final (in extra time) and the game against Sweden at the end of the qualifying campain. To say the US team is comparable is insulting.🙂 A global qualifying campain would be sure to lead to more European teams and less Costa Rica’s, Jamaica’s and Trinidad and Tobagos. The most difficult tournament to win isn’t the World Cup btw, it’s the Euros;). ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/22 "2013-03-28T15:57:20Z")
Scotland qualified for the 1950 (but didn’t go), 1954, 1958, 1974 (unbeaten), 1978 (aaargh), 1982, 1986, 1990 and 1998 tournaments. I don’t think we’ll be at another one in my remaining lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![Cumbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@Cumbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumbrian)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/23 "2013-03-28T16:36:16Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Scotland qualified for the 1950 (but didn’t go), 1954, 1958, 1974 (unbeaten), 1978 (aaargh), 1982, 1986, 1990 and 1998 tournaments. > > I don’t think we’ll be at another one in my remaining lifetime. Absent a golden generation coming through, you may well be right. Once you (the generic - not Scotland per se) fall out of the top 2 groups of seeds for qualification, you’ve got harder qualifying groups to contend with, which makes it more difficult to qualify, which makes it more likely you stay in lower pots of seeds. It’s a vicious downward spiral, that you can only really arrest by getting a super talented group together and consistently beating the teams in the 1st and 2nd seeding pots in your pools. It can be done, though it’s going to take some real investment in generating new footballers to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/24 "2013-03-28T16:47:01Z")
> [@Cumbrian](#): > > Absent a golden generation coming through, you may well be right. Once you (the generic - not Scotland per se) fall out of the top 2 groups of seeds for qualification, you’ve got harder qualifying groups to contend with, which makes it more difficult to qualify, which makes it more likely you stay in lower pots of seeds. It’s a vicious downward spiral, that you can only really arrest by getting a super talented group together and consistently beating the teams in the 1st and 2nd seeding pots in your pools. It can be done, though it’s going to take some real investment in generating new footballers to do it. I think the Scots will rise again. How high I couldn’t say but they will defo get a team together that can qualify for major tournaments. The complete absence of talent in Scottish football atm and for the past few years is more the aberration, and it will pass given how serious the Scots take the fitba. You’re right about falling out of the top seeding groups making things much harder, but phrases like golden generation are bollox really. Anyone who supports a shite team will tell you that things are fine, they just need eleven new players. Reality is, though, that 3 or 4 quality players can totally transform a side. This is doubly true for the international game, where a canny fitba man at the helm of a limited side can still get results. It’s reasonable to think that Scotland can produce the handful of legitimately good players needed to build a side around that can compete at international level. ---
**Author:** ![Cumbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@Cumbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumbrian)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/25 "2013-03-28T17:13:04Z")
I’m not sure that the phrase golden generation is any different to 3 or 4 quality players to be honest. It’s just a shorthand for “have 3-4 decent players to hang your team around”. I think a good manager could turn Scotland around and qualify them by being hard to beat. Due to the lack of time international managers have with their squads, someone with strong tactical ideas and a set of players who can carry them out can be quite effective in the international arena, especially in the qualifying groups - I’d even go so far as to say that Capello is a good example of this (given basically the same players failed to qualify for Euro 2008). ---
**Author:** ![chizzuk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e36b37/32.png) [@chizzuk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chizzuk)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/26 "2013-03-28T17:16:02Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > Games between European teams and Team USA are too infrequent (and often don’t matter enough because they’re friendlies and you can’t really base an analysis off of those results) to really compare the two. On the whole, though, the US has a losing record against most of the UEFA countries that the FIFA places above the US now. [The Netherlands has beaten the US four times in four games, for instance.](http://www.voetbalstats.nl/balans.php) > I can’t really find a good list or just some win/loss statistics against European teams, but [this page](http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/US-Men/Records/MNT-History.aspx) has some facts. England beat the US 7/10 times, Italy 7/11 times, and Germany _only_ 6/10 times (not sure if the other games are ties or wins for the US). [This site](http://www.11v11.com/teams/usa/tab/opposingTeams/opposition/Germany) might be helpful. The US has played Germany 8 times since reunification and have lost 6/8 (so I’m assuming the missing two matches were against East Germany). The two victories were in a friendly and a Confederations Cup match in 1999. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/27 "2013-03-28T17:31:15Z")
Well with referees not calling hand-balls in the penalty area when US plays Germany, it’s no wonder. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/28 "2013-03-28T18:09:31Z")
I see the same myopic arrogance here as I did in the headline in a UK daily after the WC 2010 group draw: E(ngland) A(lgeria) S(lovenia) Y(anks) Now who won that group? And its silly to say that the Euros are more difficult than the WC…the Euros have 3 more middling Euro nations while lacking the other world powerhouses. Get back to me when a Greece or a Denmark win the WC. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/29 "2013-03-28T20:03:45Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I see the same myopic arrogance here as I did in the headline in a UK daily after the WC 2010 group draw: > > E(ngland) > A(lgeria) > S(lovenia) > Y(anks) > > Now who won that group? > > And its silly to say that the Euros are more difficult than the WC…the Euros have 3 more middling Euro nations while lacking the other world powerhouses. Get back to me when a Greece or a Denmark win the WC. Funny headline, tbf. I’m not sure how serious you’re being here but I don’t think you’re massively wrong. Your comparison is ridic-u-lous on the face of things because there’s such a gap in quality between the NA and European players. It’s no longer a clearly stratified, different class like 15 years ago, but the gap is still big. International football is a bag of shite, though, so it tends to compress these differences and make it much more competitive than it really should be. The US and Mexico would get walloped by Spain or Germany, but you’re talking about two class sides there. France, England, Italy in a best of 3? The European sides might edge things but it would be close. Be a brave punter who’d back England in that scenario right now. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/30 "2013-03-28T20:15:22Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > Your point is so ludicrous that I can only assume you are making it to get a rise out of people. I’ll give you that the FIFA rankings are not the strongest (funny - this has often been something that Americans have needed to be convinced of, but that was when the US was fourth in those rankings). That said, you’re reasoning that basically only Germany and Spain (but not France, Italy, the Netherlands, Portugal, or England) are better than the US is based on just a handful of games. This is specious reasoning - by the same token, I might list the latest US results (which include a tie against Canada, and a loss against Honduras) and come to a very different conclusion. > > Games between European teams and Team USA are too infrequent (and often don’t matter enough because they’re friendlies and you can’t really base an analysis off of those results) to really compare the two. On the whole, though, the US has a losing record against most of the UEFA countries that the FIFA places above the US now. [The Netherlands has beaten the US four times in four games, for instance.](http://www.voetbalstats.nl/balans.php) > I can’t really find a good list or just some win/loss statistics against European teams, but [this page](http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/US-Men/Records/MNT-History.aspx) has some facts. England beat the US 7/10 times, Italy 7/11 times, and Germany _only_ 6/10 times (not sure if the other games are ties or wins for the US). > > In the World Cup, the US record has been [a losing one](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men's_national_soccer_team#World_Cup_record): 17/29 games ended in defeat (cf. [England 14/59](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_football_team#FIFA_World_Cup), [Portugal 8/23](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_national_football_team), [The Netherlands 17/69](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_national_football_team), [France 19/57](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_national_football_team), [Italy 17/83](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy_national_football_team#FIFA_World_Cup)). If you only look at the more recent tournaments, these numbers don’t really change. The reason for this discrepancy is that the US has a far easier time making it to the World Cup final round than most European countries do, because it has no serious opponents other than Mexico to fight over more than three spots. > > A final way to compare teams is to look at the clubs they play for and the leagues they play in. Team USA has sporadically had players that did well for big teams in Europe. I suppose the most talented and successful player has been Donovan, but numerous other country sides can boast numerous players with resumes as impressive or more so than his. It’s just silly to suggest that the US is on par with Portugal, which can field Christiano Ronaldo, or with Sweden, who can field Zlatan Ibrahimovic, or France, that has Benzema and Ribery. When you look at the countries that do well in world cups, they all have a number of players that play for big teams that do really well in the Champions League. This goes for the European teams, this goes for the African teams, and until recently it went for Brazil and Argentina, but that seems to be changing as those leagues are expanding and growing. The number of US players that have appeared in the Champions League (let alone for teams that made it out of the group stage and played in the knock out rounds) is vanishingly small. > > I’m not sure why I wrote this all out since the point \*\*madsircool \*\*is making is ridiculous and really merits any more than a :dubious: or a :smack:. Lest someone think he might be right, though, here goes Mostly right, but I think you do underrate the US. I’d definitely predict they beat Sweden more times than Sweden would beat us. They’re pretty close in quality though. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/31 "2013-03-28T20:21:43Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > I think the Scots will rise again. How high I couldn’t say but they will defo get a team together that can qualify for major tournaments. The complete absence of talent in Scottish football atm and for the past few years is more the aberration, and it will pass given how serious the Scots take the fitba. In the Euro 2008 qualifiers we managed to beat France home and away. That group also had Italy and Ukraine in it though. Bugger. The game is collapsing here. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/32 "2013-03-28T20:33:00Z")
[QUOTE=Snarky Kong] Mostly right, but I think you do underrate the US. I’d definitely predict they beat Sweden more times than Sweden would beat us. They’re pretty close in quality though. [/QUOTE] Mostly right? So what part is not right? Actually, I’ll give you Sweden. According to [here](http://www.11v11.com/teams/usa/tab/opposingTeams/opposition/Sweden), Sweden and the USA are 4/4, with the US beating Sweden twice most recently, so yeah. The Zlatan magic does not seem to be working too well for Sweden anyways, although I do maintain there’s no one on the US side who is even remotely close to being of Zlatan’s calibre. Then again, there’s a number of other second tier European countries like (for instance) the Czech Republic, the Republic of Ireland, or Denmark, that have winning records against the US. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/33 "2013-03-28T21:18:34Z")
Do other countries fans blame officiating for losses as much as Americans do? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/34 "2013-03-28T21:35:12Z")
Mexico? Okay, granted, it was a tie, but same concept. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/35 "2013-03-28T21:52:39Z")
As much as I love the American team and support them 100%, I’ve now watched enough European and South American soccer to know that we are far behind their best teams. Our 5-6 very best players can barely make the starting line-up of middle-tier teams in the top 4 leagues (La Liga, EPL, Serie A, Bundesliga). I think that will change over the next 2 decades as parents steer their boys away from American football due to the head injuries. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/36 "2013-03-28T22:07:10Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > In the Euro 2008 qualifiers we managed to beat France home and away. That group also had Italy and Ukraine in it though. Bugger. > > The game is collapsing here. Come on now **Baron Greenback** - is that based on anything in particular beyond the Old Firm travesty? I’ve moved away from Scotland now but lived there 10 yrs, played Sunday league for around 5 - there’s massive interest and participation in football (obv the alehouse game I played doesn’t have a lot to do with the national side, but the leagues were really busy and (un)healthy). Consistent interest in the game from the man on the street. That street was an Edinburgh terrace, as well, so things would be even stronger in real Scotland. Not saying the weight of evidence is not currently on your side with respect to a notably weak collection of players at the moment. But you really think that can’t change and that the game is collapsing? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/37 "2013-03-28T22:40:34Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > Not saying the weight of evidence is not currently on your side with respect to a notably weak collection of players at the moment. But you really think that can’t change and that the game is collapsing? It’s not just Rangers being busted down to the fourth tier. Dunfermline went into admin yesterday, and that is one of the bigger town clubs with a home following. Hearts are on a drip, too. 42 teams in a population of 5 (ish) million is not sustainable, ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/38 "2013-03-28T22:54:45Z")
Its interesting that so many American kids play it but 99% of them have no real interest in the game. Its hard to imagine little league players not watching baseball on tv. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/39 "2013-03-29T01:12:21Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > Mostly right? So what part is not right? Actually, I’ll give you Sweden. According to [here](http://www.11v11.com/teams/usa/tab/opposingTeams/opposition/Sweden), Sweden and the USA are 4/4, with the US beating Sweden twice most recently, so yeah. The Zlatan magic does not seem to be working too well for Sweden anyways, although I do maintain there’s no one on the US side who is even remotely close to being of Zlatan’s calibre. Then again, there’s a number of other second tier European countries like (for instance) the Czech Republic, the Republic of Ireland, or Denmark, that have winning records against the US. The part that isn’t right would be Sweden being better than the US. And yeah, it’s a no brainer that nobody on the US comes close to Zlatan. He’s miles better than anything the US has every produced. Ireland and Denmark have winning records against the US? Going back how far? **Laggard** , US fans blame officials a lot? I know there was a lot of talk during and after the game against Slovenia, but that’s one game (a tie) and had one of the worst calls of all time in it. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036/40 "2013-03-29T01:17:19Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > Its interesting that so many American kids play it but 99% of them have no real interest in the game. Its hard to imagine little league players not watching baseball on tv. > **[Soccer on ESPN - Scores, Stats and Highlights](https://www.espn.com/soccer/?cc=5901)** > > Visit ESPN for soccer live scores, highlights and news from all major soccer leagues. Stream games on ESPN and play Fantasy Soccer. T > [@](#): > > he game Tuesday night was watched by 2.385 million people on ESPN. The company said Wednesday that the previous high was 1.191 million viewers for a 2009 U.S.-Mexico match on ESPN2. > **[NULL](https://www.socceramerica.com/mexico-usa-draws-almost-7-million-tv-viewers/)** > > By Paul Kennedy The Mexico-USA match drew an average of almost 7 million viewers on ESPN and UniMas, where it set a viewing record. The 2.39 million viewers on ESPN was the largest television audience for a World Cup qualifier on an ESPN network,... > [@](#): > > An average of 4.58 million viewers watched the 0-0 tie on UniMas, making it the most-watched telecast to date on the Univision-owned network. That’s almost 7 million viewers in the US for a game that started at 10:30 Eastern time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-qualification-matches/654036.md?page=3)