# World Cup Questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 20, 2006, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485 "2006-06-20T21:05:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/21 "2006-06-22T22:36:59Z")
They should just do it like chess and use roulette as the tiebreaker. Much more entertaining than lots. And fairer than penalties 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/22 "2006-06-22T22:41:00Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] I have another idea that might be better as a replacement for drawing lots: Minutes With A Lead minus Minutes Trailing. The beauty of it is that there is no incentive to sit on a 1-0 lead, as goals scored is a higher priority tiebreaker. [/QUOTE] The suggestion is certainly better than many others. However, if an underdog team takes an early lead through a fluke or mistake, then they’ve got an incentive to sit down on it in the same way as teams might settle for draws in other situations. It also causes difficulty with the concept of the referee as adjudicator of the match duration - who decides when individual goals were scored? Tonight we had the TV producers award a red card, although the ref forgot to show it. Imagine a similar cock-up with goal timings. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/23 "2006-06-22T23:26:53Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] The suggestion is certainly better than many others. However, if an underdog team takes an early lead through a fluke or mistake, then they’ve got an incentive to sit down on it in the same way as teams might settle for draws in other situations. It also causes difficulty with the concept of the referee as adjudicator of the match duration - who decides when individual goals were scored? Tonight we had the TV producers award a red card, although the ref forgot to show it. Imagine a similar cock-up with goal timings. [/QUOTE] But isn’t the desire to actually win the game a stronger incentive for the underdog to sit on an early lead? (I don’t watch enough to be able to answer that. If an underdog scores first, do they generally try to protect that lead?) Regarding your point about time adjudication, I don’t really follow. Could you elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/24 "2006-06-22T23:35:16Z")
If an underdog scores, then they will obviously try to protect it. The problem is when teams don’t even expect to score, and play defensively. Either, in knockout competitions, it can be a “well, at least penalties gives us a chance” attitude, or in World Cup matches, they just get every man behind the ball. It can work wonders against lacklustre teams, such as England (ahem). But it makes for very boring football. Time adjudication: there’s no official clock. The referee is the final arbiter. Various threads, and various wikipedia articles, discuss this. Awarding an official time to something which isn’t officially-timed might be a problem! ---
**Author:** ![Arch\_Trout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9f8e36/32.png) [@Arch\_Trout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arch_Trout)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/25 "2006-06-23T00:03:19Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] The problem is when teams don’t even expect to score, and play defensively. Either, in knockout competitions, it can be a “well, at least penalties gives us a chance” attitude [/QUOTE] I’m in agreement as even big teams do this. IIRC in the semi-final of Euro 2000 when Italy played Holland all Italy did was put 10 men behind the ball hoping to get to penalties. Final result - Italy win on penalties after 120 minutes of (brilliantly executed) defensive football. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/26 "2006-06-23T02:25:05Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > I have another idea that might be better as a replacement for drawing lots: Minutes With A Lead minus Minutes Trailing. The beauty of it is that there is no incentive to sit on a 1-0 lead, as goals scored is a higher priority tiebreaker. Also, it would be incredibly unlikely for any two teams to earn the same number in this stat. I would normally just say “time” and include seconds, but based on the fact that apparently fantasy soccer stats include “minutes played”, I get the feeling that “minutes” are a recognizd statistic in the game. Interesting idea. Indeed, a team with a 1-0 lead would have incentive to push it to 2-0 and _then_ sit back. Unfortunately, I think teams would sit back at 2-0 or 3-0. Entertaining up until the second or third goal, but the game should be beautiful throughout, IMO. Of course, **GorillaMan** has already put it better, as I expected. But there’s my two euro anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/27 "2006-06-23T04:11:00Z")
[QUOTE=Arch Trout] I’m in agreement as even big teams do this. IIRC in the semi-final of Euro 2000 when Italy played Holland all Italy did was put 10 men behind the ball hoping to get to penalties. Final result - Italy win on penalties after 120 minutes of (brilliantly executed) defensive football. [/QUOTE] Don’t remind me. I think Holland missed 6 out of 7 penalties that day (2 duriing the run of play and 4 in the shootout). The Italian defense wasn’t all that brilliant. They gave up 2 PKs and numerous other chances. Holland just failed to put them away. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/28 "2006-06-23T08:23:45Z")
France will “get it” over Korea. France has more soccer fans and would bring in more revenue. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/29 "2006-06-23T09:57:33Z")
Er…so…that’s how they win games now, huh? I thought it was still the whole “score more goals than your opponent” routine. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/30 "2006-06-23T10:38:01Z")
[QUOTE=fetus] Er…so…that’s how they win games now, huh? I thought it was still the whole “score more goals than your opponent” routine. [/QUOTE] I assume he meant in the case where Korea and France are tied on points & goals for and against etc. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/31 "2006-06-23T10:49:58Z")
[QUOTE=borschevsky] They should just do it like chess and use roulette as the tiebreaker. Much more entertaining than lots. And fairer than penalties 😉 [/QUOTE] They haven’t used that system for years. 🙂 ‘Finally his (Robert Hubner) 1983 Candidates Quarter Final match against Vasily Smyslov was awarded on tie break to Smyslov by the spin of a roulette wheel.’ > **[Robert Hübner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H%C3%BCbner)** > > Robert Hübner (6 November 1948 – 5 January 2025) was a German chess grandmaster, chess writer, and papyrologist. He was one of the world's leading players in the 1970s and early 1980s. At eighteen, Hübner was joint winner of the West German Chess Championship. In 1965 he won, together with Hans Ree, the Niemeyer tournament for European players under 20. Nowadays it’s pairs of quickplay games (and they have used a single game system where White has 5 minutes to Black’s 4, but Black qualifies if the game is a draw) ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/32 "2006-06-23T11:08:21Z")
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers] I assume he meant in the case where Korea and France are tied on points & goals for and against etc. [/QUOTE] Duh. :smack: France isn’t even playing Korea tomorrow, now that I think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/33 "2006-06-23T12:11:17Z")
If you think tossing a coin is crazy, here’s a great [example](http://www.snopes.com/sports/soccer/barbados.asp) of what happens when authorities don’t think through the repercussions of their tournament setup. Ace. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/34 "2006-06-23T13:09:42Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] If you think tossing a coin is crazy, here’s a great [example](http://www.snopes.com/sports/soccer/barbados.asp) of what happens when authorities don’t think through the repercussions of their tournament setup. Ace. [/QUOTE] Actually both sides seem to have been very motivated! Wasn’t there a World Cup match where the score suited both sides at half-time, so they just passed it around for 45 minutes? ---
**Author:** ![blinkingblinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blinkingblinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkingblinking)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/35 "2006-06-23T13:14:22Z")
[QUOTE=glee] Actually both sides seem to have been very motivated! Wasn’t there a World Cup match where the score suited both sides at half-time, so they just passed it around for 45 minutes? [/QUOTE] That was Austria vs West Germany in 1982. At least FIFA actually changed the rules to try to stop that from happening again. Quote from Wikipedia( I do not know how to put it in those boxes) West Germany and Austria knew that a West Germany win by 1 or 2 goals would qualify them both, while a larger German victory would qualify Algeria over Austria, and an Austrian win would eliminate the Germans. (The fourth team in the group, Chile, was eliminated regardless of the outcome.) After West Germany scored after 11 minutes of furious attack, the two German-speaking teams went into an unspoken agreement and just kicked the ball around aimlessly for the rest of the game to the chants of “Fuera, fuera” (“Out, out”) from the disgusted Spanish crowd, while angry Algerian supporters waved banknotes at the players. This sham performance was widely deplored, even by the German and Austrian fans who had hoped for a hot rematch of the 1978 World Cup match in Cordoba, Argentina in which Austria had beaten West Germany, and led to the introduction of a revised system at the 1986 World Cup and future World Cups, in which the final two games in each group were played simultaneously. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/36 "2006-06-23T16:26:54Z")
Just to be clear, the reason for the change is that the players and coaches don’t have a finished match in the group behind them and know exactly how many goals each team needs. It’s easy enough for the coaches and players to find out the current score of the other game, but obviously they can only guess at the final score as anything can happen in really any period of time. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/37 "2006-06-23T16:39:50Z")
There was another disputed example, when, I believe it was 1978 when Argentina needed to beat Peru by 4 goals in order to advance. They won 6-0, and to add to the debate was the fact that Peru’s goalie was actually argentinian. I think this happened in a later group stage, not the inital one (they now only have the one group stage, but there used to ba a second group stage). ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/38 "2006-06-24T20:53:27Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Time adjudication: there’s no official clock. The referee is the final arbiter. Various threads, and various wikipedia articles, discuss this. Awarding an official time to something which isn’t officially-timed might be a problem! [/QUOTE] Yeah, that’s a fly in the ointment. If there were some way to deal with the timing issue, then a slight complication would (I think) alleviate the “sit on an early lead” issue: Leading Minutes and Trailing Minutes could both be multiplied by the goal differential. So, if you scored in the first minute, and then won the game 1-0, that would be 89. But if you scored a second goal with 30 minutes to go, that would give you an extra 30, since you’d have led by 1 for 59 minutes (worth 59) and then by 2 for 30 minutes (worth 2\*30=60) for a total of 119 for that game. Same idea for trailing minutes; each minute subtracts one for every goal you are behind at the time. As mentioned, the lack of publicly tracked official time would be an issue, but certainly not an insurmountable one. It’s also a touch more complicated, but it wouldn’t give anyone any incentive to sit on any score, really, as another goal would always be noticeably helpful to your standing in this tiebreaker, regardless of whether you were ahead or behind and by how much. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/39 "2006-06-25T00:49:24Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] Yeah, that’s a fly in the ointment. If there were some way to deal with the timing issue, then a slight complication would (I think) alleviate the “sit on an early lead” issue … [/QUOTE] That’s a change to the fundamental laws of the game (scoring and timing), so it’s not going to happen. The last big change, golden and then silver goals IIRC (to lessen the number of matches decided with penalty shootouts), was widely panned and eventually removed. You’re suggesting making large changes to the way the game is played to solve a relatively minor problem. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485/40 "2006-06-25T01:28:35Z")
I know what a golden goal is, but what’s a silver goal? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-cup-questions/361485.md?page=3)