# World of Warcraft General Discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 4, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294 "2009-03-04T17:44:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 259
**Author:** ![Mekhazzio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5161 "2009-09-18T19:00:53Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Mobility is the one thing I’ll give you there. Reflects and stuns don’t work on the overwhelming majority of bosses (nor do interrupts). Vigilance isn’t a buff–it’s a stopgap to fix something that’s incredibly broken with us (our threat). I shouldn’t have to steal threat from a DPS in order to get mine to an acceptable level. Yeah, you’re definitely coming into this with a heavy glass-half-empty bias already. First, having abilities that make trash easier isn’t something to just discard - with the sole exception of TOC, raiding spends a LOT of time on trash. Further, with the addition of so many add-heavy fights, there are plenty of scenarios where these abilities are valuable in boss fights. Having two prot warriors enables you to do a mass-AOE strategy on the lashers in 3-tree Freya thanks to the combo of challenging shout and chained shockwaves, and the Shadow Strike ability of the burrowers on heroic Anub’arak is utterly trivial to handle with Shockwave, and spell reflect is extremely useful on Mimiron either for head tanking or to get the assault bots to beam themselves with their damage amp, just to give you some offhand examples of where these things matter in difficult content. Third, you’re looking at only half of what Vigilance does. It increases your threat output, it also reduces the target’s - this is every bit as valuable or more than the threat output, by giving your hotter DPS a larger buffer to work with, and smoothing out the spikes while Salvation is only useful for long-term threat disparity. Complaining about being balanced around a great ability is really rather silly - that’s the entire point of great abilities. The density of raid buffs is exactly what it sounds like - how many key abilities are condensed into a single class. A prot warrior brings a buff shout, an armor debuff, an area attack slow, an area AP debuff, a spell interrupt, an offensive dispel, a permanent threat reduction buff, a damage redirect, an instant threat reduction, an immunity breaker, and, if you really want it, an area snare. This is a much larger toolkit than any other tank has (heck, practically any other class period) and it opens up a lot of freedom in how you build your raid or subgroups to deal with specific scenarios. Warrior damage output while tanking is a moot complaint since the devastate buff, and the grass isn’t exactly that greener in terms of survivability on the paladin side. Sure, they get higher block rates, but also lower block values, less threat from block value (making it a less effective stat to gear for) and no ability to turn it into a serious survival cooldown. Shield Block is enormous on Algalon or heroic Anub’s burrowers, effectively becoming a second shield wall on a much shorter timer. The slightly higher stamina scaling on paladins, even with the high level of gear available these days, still has yet to overcome the base HP deficit they’re starting from (warriors are the highest, paladins are tied with shaman for the lowest) or the crappiness of librams versus a ranged slot item. You can fixate on individual deficiencies in specific class comparisons, but doing so misses the bigger picture that’s actually involved. With the addition of buff drums and runescrolls in the next patch, you can easily build a balanced raid without a druid, paladin, or death knight, but I challenge you to build one without a warrior that isn’t lacking several crucial ingredients. (Can you tell I’m a raid MT? I love debates like this 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5162 "2009-09-18T19:07:22Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > Later in the game, is it possible to just be a bear and stay a bear for a whole encounter? What **Bosstone** said, and eventually, unless it’s an elite or a really big group, you’ll be tearing most things up in cat form. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5163 "2009-09-18T19:09:09Z")
> [@shot from guns](#): > > absolutely adorably, in point of fact. Since the patch that introduced the new forms, anyway. NOM NOM NOM Silly board software. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5164 "2009-09-18T19:36:15Z")
Unfortunately, I can get to zero resources on this from work, so you’ll have to forgive the lack of citations. > [@Mekhazzio](#): > > First, having abilities that make trash easier isn’t something to just discard Easier trash is **nice** , but it doesn’t define **progression**. Nobody is going to wipe to trash repeatedly because their tank got two 25k melee hits in a row. > [@](#): > > Having two prot warriors enables you to do a mass-AOE strategy on the lashers in 3-tree Freya thanks to the combo of challenging shout and chained shockwaves How is Challenging Shout helpful? It’ll get all of the Detonating Lashers on one tank for a few seconds so… they can AOE them all down at the same time and die? :dubious: > [@](#): > > spell reflect is extremely useful on Mimiron either for head tanking or to get the assault bots to beam themselves with their damage amp Yeah, I know, I’ve been the head tank for Mimiron. So, great, that’s one fight where I can use SR. And the fight could easily be done by another ranged, which would give us another DPS slot instead of my shitty DPS in Prot spec and gear. > [@](#): > > Third, you’re looking at only half of what Vigilance does. It increases your threat output, it also reduces the target’s You shouldn’t ever run up against a situation where a DPS is cranking out so much threat that they have to dial back unless they have Vig on them, unless your tanks seriously undergear the rest of your raid. Related question: how many points does a typical cookie-cutter Prot Pally build put outside of the Protection tree? Because I am pretty much flat-out \*\*required \*\*to put 15 points into Arms to guarantee that I can output enough threat to stay ahead of comparably geared DPS. > [@](#): > > A prot warrior brings a buff shout, an armor debuff, an area attack slow, an area AP debuff, a spell interrupt, an offensive dispel, a permanent threat reduction buff, a damage redirect, an instant threat reduction, an immunity breaker, and, if you really want it, an area snare Buff shout: both Commanding and Battle are low duration if not talented. Battle, as previously mentioned, is redundant if you’ve got Might. Commanding is only about 2200 extra HP untalented, IIRC. Nice, but not often game-making, and requires Rage and a GCD to throw up. Armor debuff: Sunder is great, agreed. AOE slow: TC is a good talent. I’m assuming you mean “slow” in the sense of attack speed and not movement speed. AOE AP debuff: It only runs 30 seconds, costs Rage and a GCD, and is a flat value (i.e., much less useful against bosses). Spell interrupt: Again, very few bosses that can be interrupted. The only ones I can currently think of are Vez in Uld and Lord J-whatshisface in ToC. Offensive dispel: There’s not a lot that SS can dispel off of bosses. Permanent threat reduction: Addressed above. Damage redirect: Which requires that the person being Intercepted is at a specific range with nothing dangerous in between (e.g. clouds on Yogg), and will completely screw the tank’s current positioning. Instant threat reduction: Not sure what you mean here. Taunt doesn’t reduct someone’s threat, it boosts mine, and Mocking Blow doesn’t do anything to threat levels. Immunity breaker: Can’t be used in Defensive stance. AOE snare: Not sure what you mean here. Shockwave is an AOE stun that last something like 4 seconds, not a snare. So, you gave a long list of things that for the most part have limited or no utility against bosses. > [@](#): > > Warrior damage output while tanking is a moot complaint since the devastate buff HAH. HAHAHAHAHA. No. The Devastate buff was **nice** , but we’re still too low. > [@](#): > > [comments on block] Can’t respond to these 'cause I don’t have info in front of me to compare. > [@](#): > > The slightly higher stamina scaling on paladins, even with the high level of gear available these days, still has yet to overcome the base HP deficit they’re starting from Slightly higher? Slightly? Well over half of my unbuffed HP comes from Stamina on gear, gems, and chants. Naked, I have something like 12k or 13k HP, which is about 1k more than a naked Paladin, IIRC. I have one talent that boosts my Stamina, for a total gain of 6% if I max it out. Paladins, on the other hand, have \*\*two \*\*talents, for a total of something like a 14% bonus to stamina at max points. That’s more than twice the bonus, and I believe that a buff like Kings would be working off of the already buffed value, not the baseline, which would increase the division even more. Curious: what class(es) of tank do you play? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5165 "2009-09-18T19:41:35Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > At 18 you should have Faerie Fire (Feral). 30 yard ranged taunt, costs nothing, does damage, lowers armor. Use it, love it. I stopped messing about with caster form except to heal around then (and yes, running out of mana before you can shift back to Bear suuuuucks). > > If you’re putting your talent points into Feral, about midway down the tree you get Leader of the Pack and Improved Leader of the Pack, which gives you 8% mana every time you critically hit, which helps with mana. It’s first obtainable at level 41, though, which is a ways away. Just remember, you can eat and drink while shapeshifted. In addition: Feral Charge talent lets you stop runners if you let them get just enough of a head start to activate the charge. King of the Jungle reduces mana cost of (Dire) Bear Form and Cat Form by 60%. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5166 "2009-09-18T20:35:14Z")
Thanks for the druid tips - I’ll be looking very carefully at the new stuff I’m getting from my trainer for level 18 next time I log in. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > You shouldn’t ever run up against a situation where a DPS is cranking out so much threat that they have to dial back unless they have Vig on them, unless your tanks seriously undergear the rest of your raid. Is this specifically a raid comment? My main is a level 80 frost mage–not the spec most known for face-burning DPS. I haven’t done any Northrend instances yet, but I can tell you in Outlands I was having to work hard at aggro management. There were very few runs where I didn’t have to stop blasting for a little bit (or even go invisible to shed all threat) to avoid pulling aggro off the tank. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5167 "2009-09-18T20:55:35Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > Is this specifically a raid comment? My main is a level 80 frost mage–not the spec most known for face-burning DPS. I haven’t done any Northrend instances yet, but I can tell you in Outlands I was having to work hard at aggro management. There were very few runs where I didn’t have to stop blasting for a little bit (or even go invisible to shed all threat) to avoid pulling aggro off the tank. Outlands? You probably had a tank who was (a) undergeared, (b) inexperienced, or (c) both. The sub-headings for (b) would be (1) poor spec and (2) poor ability rotation/priority. If you were also dropping a lot of AOEs, that could be an issue, too. ---
**Author:** ![lizardling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f4b2a3/32.png) [@lizardling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lizardling)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5168 "2009-09-18T22:04:11Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Hey, guys, did you hear about the good news on the PTR? > > Kanye will be nerfed in the next patch. His interrupt is just way too OP. I love that everyone and their guildie has been having fun with Kanye. 😃[Another example](http://community.livejournal.com/worldofwarcraft/8053038.html) > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > FWIW, AQ20 was a very easy two-man with a Prot War and a Resto Druid. AQ40, on the other hand, still has a few bosses that are a complete bitch because of mechanics. The MCs on the first boss means you can’t do it with just one or two people, and Twin Emps is still going to require some strategy, for example. Yeah, our guild, who are learning as a group how to raid, ran AQ20/40 for the first time over the course of last weekend. We facerolled AQ20, but AQ40 was harder and definitely made us work on strats for Emps and C’Thun (our healers did NOT like C’Thun’s stomach lemme tellya). We had one real wipe on C’Thun and one baby-induced wipe. The cheering when we got them down was pretty immense and I take my hat off to em. 😃 Speaking of hats, last night, I finally got enough badges for my first piece of tier gear – the [Conqueror’s Scourgestalker Headpiece](http://www.wowhead.com/?item=46143). _squeefulness ensues_ I HAS HORNS. Question for those of you with better gem knowledge – I’m looking at meta gems now, and I’m still not sure why the Relentless Earthsiege Diamond (+21 AGI) is the top rec as opposed to meta gems that have higher +AP? I can see that it gives DPS a better bump, but I’d like to have a layman’s explanation for why the math goes that way because as a BM hunter I’m used to gemming for straight AP. ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5169 "2009-09-18T22:19:14Z")
> [@lizardling](#): > > Question for those of you with better gem knowledge – I’m looking at meta gems now, and I’m still not sure why the Relentless Earthsiege Diamond (+21 AGI) is the top rec as opposed to meta gems that have higher +AP? I can see that it gives DPS a better bump, but I’d like to have a layman’s explanation for why the math goes that way because as a BM hunter I’m used to gemming for straight AP. It’s not the agility that’s important but the +3% crit damage. Now 3% may not sound like much but since it is a % , it will just keep getting better and better as you improve your gear, while the +ap meta will just give you the same flat ap forever. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5170 "2009-09-18T23:03:39Z")
Okay, y’all. “Ol’ Blue Eyes” (me and Wolkie/Silka) are back in town! [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ham6vFy8v2I/hqdefault.jpg "The Boys are Back in Town - Thin Lizzy (1976)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ham6vFy8v2I) Enjoy! Not much on the video, but the cleanest version I could find. BTW, we be hangin’ down at Heather’s. She be shakin’ what she’s got. 😉 Gonna back-track the posts because someone gave me some suggies on some quests we can do. Anyway, missed mah kiddos!😉 Quasi - Wolkie/Silka ---
**Author:** ![lizardling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f4b2a3/32.png) [@lizardling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lizardling)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5171 "2009-09-18T23:13:26Z")
> [@Mogle](#): > > It’s not the agility that’s important but the +3% crit damage. Now 3% may not sound like much but since it is a % , it will just keep getting better and better as you improve your gear, while the +ap meta will just give you the same flat ap forever. Ah, got it. Thanks for the explanation! ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5172 "2009-09-18T23:30:59Z")
… for quest “A plague upon thee”, but my questhelper map doesn’t show the way? Thanks Q ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5173 "2009-09-18T23:49:10Z")
[Emily Latilla] “Never Mind” [/Emily Latilla] I know. Go to the mounds in East PL and THEN go West! Q ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5174 "2009-09-19T02:27:52Z")
Just went to Tanaris to grind a little, rode into Gaping Chasm, attacked a spider and its little off-whelps, and STILL got killed??? We’re a **49** , Ogdammit!:mad: 17% on the way to 50! This SUCKS, man! This **SUCKS!** :mad: _whew_ Just needed to “vent” a tad. Thanks. I feel better now. Cue up the theme to “The Waltons”. 🙂 Q ---
**Author:** ![Goblinboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3be4f8/32.png) [@Goblinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Goblinboy)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5175 "2009-09-19T03:23:26Z")
Yeah, the bugs can be pretty mean. They like to use poisons too which adds up pretty fast with the physical damage you take. Approach them with caution. Well I made the switch to the Wolvar. 1700/6000 in honored now. 13 or 14 days to go I guess. I finally went back to the trainer to learn shattering throw, since that had been introduce while I was gone only to discover that I also needed to learn the last two ranks of mortal strike! That’s an extra 200 base damage I wasn’t doing before. I’ve had this problem with mortal strike before. I leveled from 40 to 60 as arms with only the original, talent given ability. I bought the upgrades, but that was back in the day when the upgrades were considered a second spell from the original talent point. So I never looked closely enough at the skill to realize that I was still using the Rank 1 skill, and not the Rank 4 or whatever it was. Ug! ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5176 "2009-09-19T15:15:44Z")
It’s Pirates’ Day! Go to a capital city in the old world, or Ratchet, and talk to a Pirate Commoner to get a pirate costume that lasts an hour. Then head to Booty Bay and walk out on the roof of the bank. Talk to Dread Captain Meza and get an achievement and a 12-hour version of the buff. Druids, sucks to be you - the buff will go away when you shapeshift. ☹ This is the only quest for the day, a warmup for tomorrow’s Brewfest start. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5177 "2009-09-19T16:01:50Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Druids, sucks to be you - the buff will go away when you shapeshift. ☹ Yep, I noticed this last night. ☹ I be a sad pirate. Arrr. ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5178 "2009-09-19T16:21:10Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Yep, I noticed this last night. ☹ I be a sad pirate. Arrr. This one isn’t so bad, annoying yes, but in the end it doesn’t matter, the costume will be dispelled when you use your flying mount, so it won’t last very long for anyone. For some real druid+costume pain, try doing [With a Little Helper from My Friends](http://www.wowhead.com/?achievement=252) as a feral druid :mad: Want to know what the best part is? It didn’t always work like this, but then some idiots who couldn’t tell the difference between mana, rage and energy bars started whining about how they didn’t know what form the druid was in when they fought one in pvp. ---
**Author:** ![Mekhazzio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5179 "2009-09-19T16:27:59Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > How is Challenging Shout helpful? It’ll get all of the Detonating Lashers on one tank for a few seconds so… they can AOE them all down at the same time and die? :dubious: That’s the gist of it, yep, with shockwaves to lock them in place while ranged AOE blows them up. The point being that it’s much easier to keep one person (especially a tank) alive for a brief period of time than to deal with the random explosions as the things run willy nilly. It lets you burn through the most dangerous of the three summons in no time flat, with little danger. Tricky to execute, though. And while Mimiron’s head can be tanked by a ranged person, putting a tank on it leaves less to chance (those plasma balls HURT in hard mode) and leaves whichever ranged you saved from the job free to focus on DPS. Plus, it’s not like you’re going to be doing the fight without a tank anyway, so you’re not giving up anything. It’s all about the multitasking. > [@](#): > > You shouldn’t ever run up against a situation where a DPS is cranking out so much threat that they have to dial back unless they have Vig on them, unless your tanks seriously undergear the rest of your raid. Say what? It’s not about long-term threat, it’s about softening the spikes, especially in relation to threat wipe mechanics or burst DPS specs like moonkin or destruction warlocks. And then there’s hard-modes of Hodir and Vezax, where it IS about long-term threat, and telling the DPS to hold back defeats the entire point of those fights. > [@](#): > > Related question: how many points does a typical cookie-cutter Prot Pally build put outside of the Protection tree? 12 in Retribution is mandatory to get the AP debuff, and it’s a good idea to go farther in to get the run speed and some threat talents. This isn’t as onerous as it is for warriors, however, because the paladin Prot tree has a lot fewer goodies in it, and there’s virtually nothing of value in Holy. A level 70 paladin tank spec actually has 3 points you can play with for flavor, if you’re crazy enough to give up Divine Sacrifice. Warriors have a lot more yummy talents to agonize over, which is why one of my tank buddies actually spent both his talent specs on prot raid tanking. > [@](#): > > Buff shout: both Commanding and Battle are low duration if not talented. Battle, as previously mentioned, is redundant if you’ve got Might. Commanding is only about 2200 extra HP untalented Only? Are you seriously saying “only over two thousand HP”? That’s 5% more than well-geared tanks usually run with, more than talented Fortitude, and the two stack. The only other way to get an HP buff at all is via warlock imp, and that’s of significantly lower magnitude, and the imp is a garbage pet to boot. Low duration is hardly an argument - having to push one button every few minutes isn’t exactly a hardship considering that a tank (and most anyone in a raid, really) is accustomed to GCD-locking their abilities with button mashing. I can’t believe you’re poo-pooing Commanding and Demoralizing. These are raid staples. A Blizzard dev once posted that Demoralizing was responsible for reducing hard-mode Thorim’s damage output on the tank by 50%. That’s using some generous assumptions to the scenario, but there’s no denying that it’s a substantial debuff even on bosses without instant strikes, where it’s around 17%. I do hope you’re just grousing about demo shout’s duration to have something to gripe about, and not actually making your raid deal with full power bosses. DKs don’t even get an AP debuff -at all-, they have a reason to complain. > [@](#): > > Instant threat reduction: Not sure what you mean here. > Immunity breaker: Can’t be used in Defensive stance. > AOE snare: Not sure what you mean here. Shockwave is an AOE stun that last something like 4 seconds, not a snare. In order, the first is one of Intervene’s perks, for the second I’ll spare you my grumbling about kids these days and their complaints about stance-dancing (Nef and Archimonde would like a word with you…), and the third is Piercing Howl. Pretty handy to have in a gimmick side spec for when it’s useful (Anub!) I wasn’t kidding about the class base HP bit. Warriors have 119 stam worth of base HP advantage over paladins, and the ranged slot gives…well, I’ll use the triumph throwing axes for their 64 since everybody has those now. Warrior prot gives 6% multiplier, 10% physical DR and roughly 18% magic DR, paladin prot gives 14% stam, 9% physical DR and 15% magic DR. That means our rough guesstimate of EHP equalizes between the two classes at for physical damage at…hunh. Roughly item level 226 tank gear, which we’ve since passed. Interesting, I hadn’t realized that we were actually hitting the astronomical levels predicted back in the BC days, I’ll have to grant you that one. In my current gear it’s a difference of “only” 650 HP though. 😉 > [@](#): > > Curious: what class(es) of tank do you play? I’ve done everything but bear. I did [warrior](http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Feathermoon&n=Kurga) up into tier 5 in BC, then swapped to [paladin](http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Feathermoon&n=Lyshai) for the rest of BC and since then, because, really, a raid doesn’t need a fourth warrior tank (and it was GREAT for ZA) and I have since cloned my warrior into a [death knight](http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Feathermoon&n=Kurgra) for alt runs. I’ve got a bear on the way up, but she’s far too boring to play seriously. My MT buddies in the other Horde progression guilds on the server are both warriors, and we spend a lot of time talking shop to see if we can steal any good ideas from each other 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294/5180 "2009-09-19T17:30:01Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Yep, I noticed this last night. ☹ I be a sad pirate. Arrr. Engineer portals remove the buff too ☹ it isn’t “only if the 'port happens to shapeshift you,” it’s every time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294.md?page=258) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-of-warcraft-general-discussion/488294.md?page=260)