# World Science Fiction Convention to be in Chengdu, China in 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 19, 2021, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304 "2021-12-19T06:00:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/1 "2021-12-19T06:00:59Z")
…and I have concerns. I first got wind that China was going to put in a bid for the 2023 Worldcon back when I attended Worldcon 74 in 2016. The Chungdu Bid Committee put on a presentation, then took questions, and people asked about the civil rights of sexual minorities who attended and were told that the convention itself had a “no discrimination” policy…which didn’t address what the government itself might or might not do. Someone then asked about locals that would attend, and if they would enjoy the same freedoms both during and _after_ the convention, and we got the same boiler plate answer about how the convention itself had a “no discrimination” policy. Well, they had the vote at this years Worldcon in Washington D.C. and the vote tally was Chengdu with 2006 votes vs. 807 for Winnipeg. 75 No Preference, 7 Invalid ballots. Are my concerns for both the rights of non-Chinese citizens, and the rights of Chinese citizens during and after the convention unfounded? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/2 "2021-12-19T06:26:33Z")
Sounds like it’s time for me to finally stop procrastinating and write my groundbreaking science fiction novel about the plight of the Uighur people. Failing that, I’ll see if Chuck Tingle wants to collaborate on _Pounded in the Butt By the Chinese Government’s Human Rights Record_. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/3 "2021-12-19T06:27:48Z")
ALL questions about that particular group have been ignored by the Chengdu Committee. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/4 "2021-12-19T09:44:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are my concerns for both the rights of non-Chinese citizens, and the rights of Chinese citizens during and after the convention unfounded? Nope, absolutely a valid concern. Even if Worldcon doesn’t care about those issues the Chinese government very much does. There’s no way in hell the Chinese government is going to suspend their laws and policies for that convention. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/5 "2021-12-19T09:59:17Z")
Your OP is a little unclear - is your concern with human rights in general, or LGBT people in particular? China is not progressive, but nor does it have a record of persecuting LGBT people. It’s more akin to “don’t ask don’t tell” level of discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/6 "2021-12-19T10:05:38Z")
In conjunction with their rise as an economic superpower, China is now seeking respect on the world stage by hosting events like this, and of course mega-events like the 2008 Summer Olympics and next year’s Winter Olympics. And they’re doing this while endeavouring to maintain an archaic culture and barbaric human and animal rights abuses. The concept of using money to buy respect is as old as history itself, and was famously perfected by the kingpins of organized crime. And then they threaten retaliation against any nation that has a problem with this. This is not going to end well. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/7 "2021-12-19T10:52:34Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Your OP is a little unclear - is your concern with human rights in general, or LGBT people in particular? My particular concern is that the award ceremony of record for a genre that examines and scrutinizes the human condition and the transformative effect of technological advancement on it, which is increasingly produced by people of color and LBGT+ persons, and which tends to frown on the dehumanization or persecution of minorities and outsiders, is being hosted in an authoritarian regime that does not permit freedom of expression and actively suppresses and dehumanizes most of those themes and people. You may as well host a GLAAD convention in Riyadh. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/8 "2021-12-19T11:23:25Z")
I will not be attending. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/9 "2021-12-19T14:24:35Z")
Most likely, few from outside of China will attend. Certainly most of the nominees will stay home. The NASFIC (North American SF Convention, held in the US when the Worldcon is not) will get all the attendees. Of course, buying international prestige by running a science fiction convention is not going work. Outside of the field, the Worldcon is barely noticed. Though this might give it more press – and it won’t good press. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/10 "2021-12-19T14:30:18Z")
While I do understand the concerns about holding an event like this in China, I am still amazed that 75 people voted to go to Winnipeg. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/11 "2021-12-19T15:03:47Z")
807 voted for Winnipeg. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/12 "2021-12-19T15:31:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Well, they had the vote at this years Worldcon in Washington D.C. and the vote tally was Chengdu with 2006 votes vs. 807 for Winnipeg. 75 No Preference, 7 Invalid ballots. That seems…awfully lopsided. Who was allowed to vote and did the Chinese government send an unusually large party? I simply don’t understand why damn near 70% of the voters picked a place like that. Smells rigged to me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/13 "2021-12-19T15:50:41Z")
The sites of future Worldcons are selected by a vote of the members of the Worldcon two years in advance, _and you do not have to be present at the convention to vote_. There was an influx of voters that voted for Chengdu, the majority of which did not provide a personal address. No rule against that, but it does bring up the disturbing possibility that the Chinese government, which would like to use Worldcon as a political tool and has long viewed science fiction as a means to put out their political positions, just _might_ have done a little ballot stuffing. Frankly, since the problem of heavy governmental influence in the selection of Worldcon bids has never really popped up before, I think the selection committee was blindsided. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/14 "2021-12-19T15:51:49Z")
Please note how voting for the site of the 2023 Worldcon works. To vote for it, you need to be an attending, virtual, or supporting member of the 2021 Worldcon. A virtual member is one who isn’t at the site but is allowed to sign on for many online events at the 2021 Worldcon. A supporting member is one who pays a smaller amount as a supporter of the event but who isn’t at the site and isn’t allowed to sign on for the online events. In addition, to vote for the site of the 2023 Worldcon, it is necessary to pay a $50 fee in addition to the fee paid for being an attending, virtual, or supporting member of the 2021 Worldcon. I am an attending member of the 2021 Worldcon. I haven’t been to all of it because it’s necessary for me to take the Washington Metro to the hotel where it’s going on because it’s essentially impossible to park near the hotel. It’s clear to me though that very few of the attending members of the 2021 Worldcon are from China. Clearly most of those 2006 votes for Chengdu were from virtual and supporting members. I suspect that the Chinese government paid for most of their fees. I was going to vote for Winnipeg at the table in the dealer’s room where last-minute votes for the site where allowed to be given, but then I learned about the $50 fee. Since it was already clear that it was unlikely that Winnipeg could win, I didn’t vote: > **[2023 Worldcon Site Selection - DisCon III](https://discon3.org/whats-on/hugo-awards-wsfs/2023-worldcon-site-selection/)** > > Site Selection for 2023 Worldcon   Site Selection Results Chengdu won the vote for the 2023 Worldcon location Worldcon 2023 Site Selection Tally Rules Only attending, supporting, or virtual members of DisCon III may vote to choose the site of... Incidentally, I learned about the Chengdu bid for 2023 while I was at the 2019 Worldcon in Dublin. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/15 "2021-12-19T16:26:14Z")
So, having now done additional research based on the replies above (thanks!). It looks like it cost the PRC about $150k to buy themselves a convention. Wouldn’t it be awesome if most, if not all, of the 2023 Hugo nominees were works banned in China? The whole thing is going to have a huge asterisk on it anyway, may as well go all out! ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/16 "2021-12-19T16:27:50Z")
I voted for Winnipeg [what? I like Canada.] We will NOT be going [even if we could afford to, but that isn’t the point] There are quite a few of us discussing this on a different platform, and we are collectively horrified and China DID load the voting as far as we can tell. And it is not going to end well for those in China that opt to attend and get outed in one way or another. [we may go to the alternate here in the US if funds ease up.] ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/17 "2021-12-19T16:27:55Z")
I’m not trying to defend China’s overall record on human rights and freedom of expression, obviously it’s appalling. But it does _not_ specifically have a bad history of oppression of LGBT people. Here it is ranked 66th out of 202 countries, similar to Japan, South Korea, Hungary, Monaco. > **[Gay-friendly | World](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay-friendly#World)** > > The Pew Research Center conducted a survey in 2019 to measure levels of acceptance of LGBT around the globe. > **[HK, China, Asia news & opinion from SCMP’s global edition | South China...](https://www.scmp.com)** > > Your source for credible news and authoritative insights from Hong Kong, China and the world. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/18 "2021-12-19T17:57:23Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > So, having now done additional research based on the replies above (thanks!). It looks like it cost the PRC about $150k to buy themselves a convention. Yep, sounds like the year of the Sad Kirin. > **[Why a Chengdu Worldcon Should Be a Chengdhon’t - Amazing Stories](https://amazingstories.com/2020/08/why-a-chengdu-worldcon-should-be-a-chengdhont/)** > > There's no ethical or moral difference between the Jeddah Saudi Arabia bid and the Chengdu China bid ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/19 "2021-12-19T18:15:48Z")
For Winnipeg, 475 votes were cast during the con, 332 pre-con. For Chengdu, it was 56 during the con, 1950 pre-con. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/20 "2021-12-19T18:44:10Z")
For Hugo voting, all authors of nominated works should change their names to Jesse Owens, if you ask me. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304.md?page=2)