# World Science Fiction Convention to be in Chengdu, China in 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 19, 2021, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304 "2021-12-19T06:00:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2021, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/41 "2021-12-26T22:18:51Z")
I mean, it was almost certainly an “organized scheme.” But was a genuinely grass-roots scheme by genuine Chinese sci-fi fans, or was it a scheme by the Chinese government? I’m sure it had at least “tacit” governmental support, in that Chinese censors didn’t squash it. But beyond that…I don’t know it for sure it wasn’t some sort of government-backed scheme, of course, but, again, that explanation just doesn’t seem necessary to me. The only other bid was from a group in Winnipeg. And Chengdu is a city of over 16 million people. You could probably rustle up a couple of thousand votes from just sci-fi fans and local businesses in Chengdu alone without much problem. Dublin, Helsinki, and Glasgow have hosted Worldcons; _Melbourne_ has managed to snag it _four times_, without any accusations of meddling by the Australian government that I’m aware of. It’s certainly possible that the Chinese government schemed to get a small geek convention, but it also seems very plausible to me that in the most populous country in the world all of a couple of thousand of sci-fi fans managed to self-organize a campaign to finally get a Worldcon. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/42 "2021-12-27T00:15:36Z")
I’m not sure that any vote verification occurs using addresses - no one looks at the addresses to confirm that they are valid, or that they match a person’s name. The addresses seem to be a holdover from the time when the only way to contact members was via paper mail, but now electronic means are much more common, inexpensive and convenient. At any rate, if a state-level agency had been actively puppeteering a campaign, they could ensure that addresses that seemed unassailable were provided. The human rights issues, and concerns about censorship at the con are a bigger deal for me than worries that the group that won for Chengdu is a front are ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/43 "2021-12-27T01:46:04Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > The human rights issues, and concerns about censorship at the con are a bigger deal for me than worries that the group that won for Chengdu is a front are I think part of my point is that a lot of people would have those same worries (especially the types that would attend and support a WorldCon), so the only way China could win was “to stack the deck” with or without government support. The thing about addresses was from a page at DisCons site that both mentioned the missing addresses and the fact that the voting page said address was required (that page seems to have disappeared and been replaced with the final tally report). They accepted the votes anyway. From [here](https://discon3.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Worldcon2023SiteSelectTally.pdf) (PDF Warning): > [@](#): > > Included in the Pre-Con totals > were 1591 ballots from China **missing a street address, but otherwise valid**. Emphasis added. They thought it was relevant enough to mention it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/44 "2021-12-27T02:15:02Z")
Out of 1950 mail in votes, 1591 had no mailing address…but were otherwise valid. Meaning what, exactly? Are the votes sort of/kinda/semi valid? Is there a way to find out what percentage of the votes were without addresses at Discon III, or the one previous to it? I would like to know if this is a common occurrence. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/45 "2021-12-27T02:37:00Z")
Personally I suspect it came down to practicality. Do you refund $159,100 in 1,951 separate transactions (which by the way handicaps the 2023 Committee because all of that money goes to them) or just suck it up and let them get away with it? No idea how to find out about prior votes. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/46 "2021-12-27T03:05:23Z")
I can’t say for sure, being out of the loop for years, but I’d say it’s unprecedented. Voting is normally under 1000 total votes. A block of 1600 non-conformist votes is startling. When I heard about the address issue, I mentally yelled. You can see the full voting [here](http://file770.com/chengdu-wins-2023-worldcon-site-selection-vote/). That doesn’t mean it was orchestrated by the Chinese government. It is possible that a large organized group of Chinese fans circulated the information and forgot to tell people that an address was needed. That’s also doubtful. It’s too late to view the purchase membership form for Discon but I checked [the one for next year’s Worldcon in Chicago](https://registration.chicon.org/reservations/new?offer=Supporting+%2450.00+USD) and there certainly are address boxes to be filled in. What’s not clear is if they are required. And it’s possible that Chinese addresses won’t fit easily into the America-centric form. I have no proof to offer either way. I would expect that an organized group of Chinese fans that large would be evident in future fandom and the personnel to run a Worldcon is huge these days. I have to assume that news will trickle out over the next two years, and especially at Chicago in 2022. The following year’s Worldcon always sends a huge contingent of people to get experience. It’s an all volunteer crowd after all. Next year’s Olympics will cast a huge shadow over the viability of international events in China. Some fans may seize the opportunity, others may shun China entirely. There is always a NASFIC (North American Science Fiction Convention) in years when the Worldcon is held out of North America. The vote won’t be until Chicago, but Orlando has put in a bid. That’s a very attractive spot. The 2019 NASFIC was held in Layton, UT, a suburb of Salt Lake City with the ambiance of a large strip mall, and even though it technically was four separate conventions held simultaneously attendance was dismal. If anyone knows _not_ to make predictions about the future, it’s science fiction nerds. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/47 "2021-12-27T03:11:48Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > You can see the full voting [here](http://file770.com/chengdu-wins-2023-worldcon-site-selection-vote/). Thanks! The article linked in your article - [this one](http://file770.com/discon-iii-business-meeting-keeps-lodestar-best-series-passes-controversial-resolution-about-site-selection/) - has most, if not all, of the information I remember seeing on the DisCon page including the reference to the WSFS Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/48 "2021-12-27T03:49:57Z")
Invalid votes do not result in refunds. Invalid votes are treated as “no preference” and the voters receive a supporting membership in the winning bid. As I read the Constitution, the voter is not required to provide an address - the vote administrator is required to include space for an address to be entered. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2021, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/49 "2021-12-27T18:05:17Z")
Accounts report that the issue of no addresses was raised during counting and dismissed. There seems to be no reason why the votes would be illegal. The question is whether the votes were an organized campaign and if so by who. Whether the lack of addresses is a telling indicator of such a campaign or just an artifact of the voting system is something we don’t know and can’t tell from mere numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2026, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/50 "2026-09-11T17:01:14Z")
I am reviving this because of very recent news: The 2026 Worldcon Business meeting was held at the LA Worldcon, so here is a link to that recap: [WSFS Business Meeting Recaps – LAcon V](https://www.lacon.org/businessmeetingrecaps/), which was a bit more interesting than I expected. "##### **Resolution D.6** _Resolved_, that Dave McCarty is censured by the World Science Fiction Society Business Meeting for his actions related to the 2023 Worldcon, and_Resolved_, that future Worldcons are requested to ban Dave McCarty indefinitely from WSFS membership and from joining any future Worldcon, and from volunteering at any future Worldcon in any capacity. ##### **Resolution D.7** _Resolved_, that Joe Yao/Yao Chi/姚驰 is censured by the World Science Fiction Society Business Meeting for his actions related to the 2023 Worldcon, and _Resolved_, that future Worldcons are requested to ban Joe Yao/Yao Chi/姚驰 from WSFS membership for a period of two years, and from joining Worldcon for a period of two years, and from joining any future Worldcon committees in a leading capacity. ##### **Resolution D.8** _Resolved_, that Raistlin Chen/Shi Chen is censured by the World Science Fiction Society Business Meeting for his actions related to the 2023 Worldcon, and _Resolved_, that future Worldcons are requested to ban Raistlin Chen/Shi Chen from WSFS membership for a period of two years, from joining Worldcon for a period of two years, and from joining any future Worldcon committees in a leading capacity. ##### **Resolution D.9** Resolved, that Ben Yalow is censured by the World Science Fiction Society for his actions related to the 2023 Worldcon, and Resolved, that future Worldcons are requested to ban Ben Yalow from WSFS membership for a period of five years and from joining Worldcon for a period of five years and from volunteering for any future Worldcon in any capacity." Wow! I have known Mr. Yallow for years and seen him at many conventions of the last few years, but knowing what I now know about his antics before, during and after the 2023 Chengdu Worldcon I have no objections to these moves taken at the WSFS Business meeting. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2026, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/51 "2026-09-11T21:38:11Z")
I’ve known Yalow for many years, too. This was a terrible decision on his part. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2026, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/52 "2026-09-11T21:40:13Z")
He had so many opportunities to give his side of the story, but never did, ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2026, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/53 "2026-09-11T22:09:17Z")
For those that missed some of the behind-the-scenes issues with Worldcon 2023, here’s a blog posting from one of the artists that received a Hugo, found how _tainted_ the process was, and retroactively refused it. Several good links to some of the analysis: > **[“Rabbit Test” unwins the Hugo](https://samtasticbooks.com/2024/02/17/rabbit-test-unwins-the-hugo/)** > > I cannot convey the supreme depths to which I’d rather be doing anything else with my Saturday afternoon other than writing this blog post, but here we are. If you have been blessedly insulat… Supershort version - they self-censored their selections either to appease expected Chinese wants/desires and/or to keep the final awards concentrated outside the Chinese market. Then tried to obfuscate their manipulation until a whistleblower showed the internal emails. There may have been more going on, but this was pretty serious POV of readers and authors evaluated. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/54 "2026-09-12T02:37:36Z")
Yes. Ben’s a legendary figure in fandom - and he ruined it all ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2026, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/55 "2026-09-13T03:53:04Z")
Why is she forced to do anything unilaterally? Why can the committee not officially resolve that all awards awarded at the 2023 convention are null and void? This would save a bunch of people a lot of embarrassment. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2026, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304/56 "2026-09-13T06:21:08Z")
She wasn’t _forced_, she chose to do so, when by her understanding she shouldn’t have been a finalist, much less the winner. Entirely voluntary. As to why said committee chose not to take action, well, it sounds a LOT like it took 3 years for them to figure out what was going on, what they were going to do, and what censures to hand out internally. I’m sure they figure it’s easier at this remove to ignore the issue and move on, after having cleaned out their own “dirty laundry”. As a reader of such fiction, I don’t agree, but that’s me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-science-fiction-convention-to-be-in-chengdu-china-in-2023/956304.md?page=2)