# World Trade Center \[questions/conspiracy theories\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861 "2011-08-24T03:45:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/61 "2011-08-26T01:08:39Z")
[QUOTE=mnemosyne] My hockey-blog nitwits are at it again, this time with “explain how FIRE BURNED METAL for the first time in history! Huh? Fire can’t melt METAL!” I’m so tempted to recommend they hop back to the Iron Age and see if they can work it out for themselves. [/QUOTE] I don’t remember whether it was on National Geographic’s or Discovery, but there was a 2 hour special where they had a bunch of 9/11 Truthers on and some engineer types, and they were addressing a lot of the myths. One of them was the whole ‘metal can’t "melt’ at the temperatures possible from jet fuel’. They filled a big pit with jet fuel, put a structural steel beam over it, loaded it with weight equivalent to what the loading of one of the actual load bearing beams in the towers, then lit the jet fuel. It didn’t even take 5 minutes before the beam failed, and eventually twisted into a pretzel. The idiot Truthers were hemming and hawing about how the beam was naked (conveniently forgetting the air plane that would have slammed into the structure, clearing off the fire proofing), but they sounded like idiots. I recommend having them watch the show the next time they want to babble something about how metal won’t ‘melt’ from the temperatures involved in this event…and remind them that the beams don’t actually HAVE to ‘melt’, they simply have to deform a little bit and lose a little bit of structural support. Once one of the major load bearing beams for a floor starts to sag the entire structure starts to move, and then it’s all about potential energy and that gravity stuff… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/62 "2011-08-26T01:25:36Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Seriously, I am not turning on my TV till mid-Sept. Did Japan and Germany and London do this much self-pitying whining in the early- mid-1950s for the tenth anniversary of WWII? Watch some Japanese cartoons sometime - about 90% will feature a city being destroyed in a gigantic mushroom cloud explosion at one point or another. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/63 "2011-08-26T01:25:59Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > They said burn not melt. Metal can not [burn](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdCsbZf1_Ng&feature=related). Well, actually they said both. That was actually a copy-pasted quote. Their “argument” had to do with the heat of fires not being able to weaken structural steel. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/64 "2011-08-26T02:20:26Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > They said burn not melt. Metal can not [burn](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdCsbZf1_Ng&feature=related). And yet you linked to a video in which metal burns. Thermite is made up of, in part, aluminum. Burns awfully well, doesn’t it? Of course metals can burn. Most metals will burn, I should think. Titanium is qute infamous in metalworking for its propensity to burn - or, more precisely, for the fact that once it catches fire it’s very, very hard to put out. In fact, titanium in normal air can’t be melted, because it will burn before it melts. Iron will burn, too, but it isn’t easy. The iron that made the skeleton of the WTC did not burn, or even melt; it simply lost strength to heat. Iron will lose its strength long before it melts. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/65 "2011-08-26T03:13:20Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > They said burn not melt. Metal can not [burn](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdCsbZf1_Ng&feature=related). Sit out chemistry at school, did you? [Metal](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj69mds0m7s) [burns](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk-_aiCbzI8) [quite](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L-R2PxzWGM) [well](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UJTR-LA1z4). [Some metals will even ignite without an external heat source](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD85OUkEKKw). ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/66 "2011-08-26T10:34:55Z")
Ask them how a blacksmith makes a sword. It’s a visual enough image it should pop into their head. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/67 "2011-08-26T13:32:03Z")
Magic? ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/68 "2011-08-26T13:44:00Z")
Not this again. Who ever the men in black were they were able to pull all of these nefarious acts off in order to invade the middle east, right ? But forget to plant WMD’s in Iraq. That’s a big fucking d’oh. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/69 "2011-08-26T14:16:50Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Ask them how a blacksmith makes a sword. It’s a visual enough image it should pop into their head. A horseshoe is better. You never melt the fucking thing, you just heat a metal bar over a fire and bend it into shape. During the Civil War, the standard way to destroy railroads was to gather up the wooden ties, toss on the metal rails, and start a fire. The heat would warp the rails to unusability. ---
**Author:** ![randomface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@randomface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomface)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/70 "2011-08-26T14:18:53Z")
Blacksmiths must use thermite. It’s the only way that metal could possibly be weakened enough to be bent or shaped. Apparently, metal cannot be weakened by fire enough to bend under the weight of several stories of a skyscraper unless some explosives or thermite is applied. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/71 "2011-08-26T16:09:28Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > Who ever the men in black were they were able to pull all of these nefarious acts off in order to invade the middle east, right ? > > But forget to plant WMD’s in Iraq. The original plan was to plant a half-completed Death Star under one of Saddam’s palaces, but the truther’s sterling work in exposing the truth about 9/11 scared them into abandoning that plan. If it wasn’t for those gallant truthers, willing to risk merciless anal probing at the hands of government agents, the US would have invaded Iran, North Korea, Canada and Belgium by now. Pimply teenagers of the world, we salute you! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/72 "2011-08-31T02:44:14Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > A horseshoe is better. You never melt the fucking thing, you just heat a metal bar over a fire and bend it into shape. > > During the Civil War, the standard way to destroy railroads was to gather up the wooden ties, toss on the metal rails, and start a fire. The heat would warp the rails to unusability. Ah yes, Sherman’s bowties (or neckties, I can never remember what was in fashion). ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/73 "2011-09-09T04:13:44Z")
Went through the Wikipedia article on 9/11 again, line by line, and found this: > [@](#): > > Bin Laden claimed in 2004 that the idea of destroying the towers had first occurred to him in 1982, when he witnessed Israel’s bombardment of high-rise apartment buildings during the invasion of Lebanon. 9/11 - September 11, 2001 - was planned as early as 1982, or even earlier. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2011, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/74 "2011-09-09T12:55:40Z")
See how much Al Queda sucks? It took them almost 20 years to get their shit together. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/75 "2011-09-13T02:05:12Z")
For once, I’m ahead of [the curve](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/12/business/media/on-wikipedia-911-dissent-is-kept-on-the-fringe.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper). I believe that there should be no link from the [9/11](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks) article to the [9/11 conspiracy theories](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories) article and for a very persuasive reason - 9/11 must lead one to 9/11 conspiracy theories, not vice versa. This is an example of the relevance paradox. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/76 "2011-09-13T05:10:41Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > Not this again. > > Who ever the **men in black** were they were able to pull all of these nefarious acts off in order to invade the middle east, right ? > > But forget to plant WMD’s in Iraq. > > That’s a big fucking d’oh. Don;t drag me into this. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/77 "2011-09-13T09:53:09Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > For once, I’m ahead of [the curve](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/12/business/media/on-wikipedia-911-dissent-is-kept-on-the-fringe.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper). > > I believe that there should be no link from the [9/11](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks) article to the [9/11 conspiracy theories](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories) article and for a very persuasive reason - 9/11 must lead one to 9/11 conspiracy theories, not vice versa. This is an example of the relevance paradox. Why are there sections on conspiracy theories in the JFK Assassination article and the Moon Landings article, then? In the Moon Landings case, the section is sceptical, saying that the hoax theories are readily disproved, so I don’t see why the 9/11 article can’t adopt a similar tone - “there are some whack-job but nevertheless quite widespread conspiracy theories out there, and if you want to read about them here’s a link”. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861/78 "2011-09-13T16:10:45Z")
Saw one of the better shows on the forensics of what happened to each building on 9/11, including some very interesting details on the Pentagon that I didn’t know previously, and also a lot of good info on Tower 7. The show was called ‘9/11: The Towers and the Pentagon’ and was on either Science or Military Channel (don’t remember which one), and is a must see for anyone interested in what really happened wrt how and why the buildings collapsed. Anyone wanting to take on the various nutball CTer types should start with this show as a must see, IMHO. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-trade-center-questions-conspiracy-theories/593861.md?page=3)