World Tribune says Iraq shipped WMD out. Help Dismiss.

Great Debates
41

Wouldn’t that be swell? If things were that simple, if ends were unconnected to means, and if actions had but one result. Then any child could consult the Big Golden Book of International Relations. “Saddam bad. See bad Saddam. Bad Saddam! Bad!” No pesky gray areas, no complex ramifications to consider. Just good ol’ cowboy justice. What’s wrong with that?

Just about everything.

First off, its international vigilantism. Nobody appointed us World Sheriff, the tin star we wear is self-awarded. We have examined ourselves and found ourselves worthy of the position, and therefore duly appointed us. Why not Denmark? Why not France? What is to prevent Pakistan from examining India’s human rights record as regards Muslims and taking the appropriate disastrous action?

You have truncated the issue simplisticly, that the only result of our actions is the removal of Goddam Hussein, a good thing. The current state of unrest and fear in Iraq, this is a good thing? The looming potential of bloody civil war, this is peachy dandy? Making the US the focus of international dread and contempt, we should dance in the streets celebrating?

I think not.

If a mob broke into Ted Bundy’s jail cell and dragged him off to lynch, that would be a bad thing. Not because Bundy doesn’t deserve it, but because we show contempt for our own rules, our own civilization. If he were innocent, it goes from bad to horrific, but no amount of guilt on his part could negate the guilt on ours.

Secondly, the lack of any conceivable threat. As General Zinni pointed out, Saddam was boxed in, contained, impotent. His vaunted military machine was a paper tiger…a wet paper tiger. He had no means to do us harm, save by voodoo. Self defense is a valid premise for war, but it must be true!

And, of course, the lies. The flat-footed, bald-faced assertions of certainty where no such certainty was possible, never mind extant. I am reluctant to be led into war, but I’m *God-*damned if I will be bullshitted into war!

There’s more, of course, much more. So what say we restrain our self from child-like simplifications and deal with complexity like the adults we aspire to be?

(On preview: what Dio says as well. So much bullshit, so little time…)

42

Tell you what, Isk; I’ll gladly stop complaining about the stupidity of this Damn Fool War if you and all the other pro-war hawks volunteer to pay the costs for it out of your own pockets – instead of fostering the bill on the backs of all us level-headed anti-war taxpayers. I’ll even overlook the little problem of all the people who were killed or maimed in this war, just as an extra incentive.

How about it? Care to put your money where your mouth is? :slight_smile:

43

Will you start talking at least a modicum of sense, please? We suffered 9-11, “we killed several thousand people- including hundreds of Americans”, we invaded and occupied a whole goddamn country, and still it “isn’t really a war but a catch phrase”? Bush is a monster, because he does things that you think are bad, and he certainly lies about his real reasons for doing those bad things, because he is a monster…

44

Not fair… I say he should enlist and be shipped to Iraq where flowers will be thrown on him.

45

So start talking about important things, dictated by present realities. Stop whining, “Saddam removal good, but…”, say “Saddam removal was good, what do we do now?” Saddam removal opened great many possibilities, how can we use the positives and defend against the negatives now? How do we capitalize on the good and minimize the bad? You think Kerry has to be entrusted with this job? Fine. If I believe in anything, it is no president should be indispensable. Now start explaining how Kerry can improve things.

Stop about “international dread and contempt”. Whose “international dread and contempt” exactly? You didn’t give a damn when Clinton bombed Serb civilians, without even trying to hit Slobodan once. That’s when Russians and Chinese changed toward US. What’s different this time? France?

And enough pontificating retired generals. Wasn’t a spectacle of “multiilateral” Gen. Clark enough? Same Gen. Clark who was jumping to attack Russian troops in Pristina when he was able to issue real orders? Who had to be restrained by his own subordinates?

46

Is that a joke? If you disagree with the gov’t, you refuse to pay taxes? That is straight out of nether fringes of the cookiest right. What kind of reading were you sneaking on lately?

Think about it. Because I’ll be glad to take you on. I pay for the wars, and you pay for internal welfare programs. It’s a deal. It’s a steal. It’s like taking candy from a baby.

47

US Army doesn’t want me. They have enough qualified personnel, well trained for their tasks. It is the other side that recruits all sorts, especially suicidal maniacs.

48

So you’re not so much trying to deny that increasing the availability of WMD and WMD components to terrorists is a grave disservice, as you’re saying that the increased availability is just a price we have to pay to eliminate terrorism?

And increasing the chances of them getting a hold of WMD is a bad thing, a disservice.

49

Which is, of course, not at all what rjung said. Your paraphrase and his actual words are both in English, but there the resemblance ends.

I’d go for that. I’d even go for a plan that has you paying no taxes at all, with no wars to support. It would be well worth it. Of course, Lockheed and General Dynamics might be forced to go into the soft porn business, or hold bake sales. Heartbroken as I might be, I think I could find the will to live. And you could keep your money for worthy causes, like putting Ayn Rand on Mt. Rushmore.

We aren’t interested in your hobbies. Stick to the subject.

50

Thisi s what is said before a war. The DoD scrapped the plans and advice devised over a year by the State Dept in favor of a few months of planning from Pentagon political appointees. Jay Garner tried to get the architect of those plans on his team. The Pentagon prevented this. These sorts of irresponsible decisions have lead to unecessary shortfalls and set backs repeatedly. The lack of adequate security at suspected WMD component sites is just one example of how slipshod leadership has made the threat of terrorism worse rather than better.

I’ll indulge the hijak for a moment. I just ask, ‘What’re the dds that he’d do worse?’ The team that’s had it’s chance has systematically and repeatedly screwed up. It’s time to let another groups of Americans try.

When it comes to the military and war, generals count as experts. It is considered quite appropriate and traditional to consuilt generals about the matters of the military and war. General Zinni in particular has extensive experience not only in the military, but in the ME.
General Clarke’s actions seem unrelated to the statements of General Zinni. Is your Clarke stuff non-sequitur as it appears, or is there some logical connection between Clarkes actions and Zinni’s assessments.

51

When I said, ‘Jay Garner tried to get the architect of those plans on his team.’
I was referring to the architecht of the State Department’s Future of Iraq Project, not the DoD’s Office of Special Plans.

52

Well, turn it around – since I’m already paying taxes for this damn fool war, surely I reserve the right to complain about how it was damn foolish to start with, and how it’s been a total cluster f*ckup since. And yet, you keep coming around trying to sell us a line of garbage that this war was a good thing, that we should all be grateful Brave Incurious George was willing to “whack” Saddam on trumped-up premises.

Sorry, but I don’t think so. If I have to pay for this war against my will (which I already have), I’m getting my money’s worth of bitchin’ about it.

53

Increasing availability of what, chicken coups? Look, I don’t know what you’re trying to accomplish, but you must realize that you are singing in the same chorus that keeps on how WMD didn’t exist and the only danger is Bush, so your true voice is hard to hear…

54

I suggest you educate yourself, tovarisch e.

55

No, whatever WMDs and WMD components that Hussein may’ve had.

I must be the dissonant voice in the choir cause I’m not on about how the WMD didn’t exist. I’m on about how whatever WMDs and WMD components that Hussein may’ve had and the sites where these things were or may have been have been left unsecured and subsequently have been looted, removed and razed.

I’m just saying that it’s bad for terrorists to have a better chance of acquiring WMDs or WMD components.
I had previously assumed that this was uncontroversially a bad thing.

56

You gotta do better than that. You gotta lay it out in all the details. You gotta be convincing. Things coulda been a whole lot worse, and you know it. At least Bush bombed Saddam bunker instead of Chinese embassy.

Generals and Presidents behave and talk very different when in office and when out. Look at the actions and skip the words, whenever you can.

57

But you are saying that in the thread titled “…Iraq shipped WMD out. Help Dismiss.”

Do you seriously think that in me you found somebody who approves of that? However, you gotta look at the bigget picture. To follow your logic, Reagan should never have taken a risk to pressure the Soviet Union agressively. Just imagine all those WMD turned loose.

58

Well, it sure isn’t like RM was ever gonna title it “Help me consider with an open mind.”

59

Well, he’s starting us out easy, we Americans have greatly expanded our reputation for chucklewittedness. Simple things first, like parsing out the lie in an Admin press release. Next week, tying your shoes.

60

Are you suggesting now that WT is a clearing channel for the Bush Admin. propaganda?

It’s very simple. Scrap metal thiefs operate all over the world, particularly in underdeveloped countries. The article should’ve been named “Iraqi thiefs steal missile, ship to Holland”. Instead we have another WMD issue, because those WMD letters are so pumped full of hot air that they are sure to attract attention to anything. Just the thing for lazy journalists to use on a slow day. Works every time. So we observe “Help Dismiss” call to arms among resident lefties here, while I suspect somewhere on the opposing fringe of the WWW one could find “Help Nail’em” rallying cry, referencing the very same article.