# World War I was better than World War II **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 2, 2000, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388 "2000-10-02T20:24:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/41 "2000-10-03T20:48:08Z")
“Britten was born in 1913. I guess he was one of them prodigies?” Mrs. Britten [in Monty Python cockney-lady voice]: “Ow, look, little Benny’s gone and written a War Requiem—and only a year old, 'e is!” Mrs. Copeland: “That’s nothing, Tillie—me little Aaron’s gone an’ done a Fanfare for the Modern Man, and 'e’s not even out of nappies, yet, 'e ain’t!” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/42 "2000-10-03T20:52:41Z")
Actually, RickJay, one of the games that won a high number of awards last years was _Paths of Glory_, a World War I strategic board game using a very well expanded “Hannibal” system. I’ve played it several times against one of my housemates, and it’s a kick-ass game. True, WW2 games dominate in quantity and breadth, but the strategies and possibilities in Paths of Glory make it one damned kick-ass game. My housemate just got _Blitzkreig General_, so we’ll see how the WW2 take on the system goes. ---
**Author:** ![Rodd\_Hill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ab097/32.png) [@Rodd\_Hill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodd_Hill)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/43 "2000-10-03T21:17:47Z")
Wargaming, eh? You could always take it to the next level: [this site](http://www.reenact.homestead.com/gwa.html) is about a group who re-enact WWI in Pennsylvania: > [@](#): > > With a dedicated membership and the need to accurately portray a WWI battlefield, came the need to have trenches, barbed wire, emplacements, bunkers and space enough to still conduct battles. After progressing through a number of sites, mostly small and temporary, the GWA purchased and established a permanent living history and memorial site near Newville, PA. “The Caesar Krauss Great War Memorial” is the largest WWI dedicated battle site in the world. This site covers 80 acres and consists of opposing trench systems with underground bunkers, barbed wire belts and a “no-man’s-land.” [Here’s some photos](http://www.reenactor.net/WW1/ww1picts1.html) of the event. Not my cup of rum, especially, but I like the old guy portraying the French version of **"Ole Bill**! Or, you can join the [WWI Irish Guards](http://pages.hotbot.com/edu/irish-guards/IG1.html) re-enactors. C’mon, it’ll only cost you $1500 or so… ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/44 "2000-10-03T22:05:10Z")
As I was contemplating this thread, a couple of unrelated things occurred to me. 1. First, two words: **trench darts!** Yeowtch! The WW1 exhibit/displays at the Imperial War Museum in Merry Ol’ England were mind-numbing in scope and detail. I could never absorb it all. But the one thing that stayed with me were the **trench darts** – all-steel, pointed darts meant to be dropped from airplanes by the bucketful on entrenched enemy soldiers! Damn, I think I’d rather be gassed than have one or two of those fuckers come crashing through my cranium while I’m hunkered down, “safe” in my rat-infested trench. 2. One of the best damn docu-dramas I ever saw was a PBS tele-play about the signing of the treaty that ended The Great War. The poor, hapless suckers from the losing side that were sent to “negotiate” peace knew they were doomed men from the start; they knew that they had no means to force “facing-saving” terms from the victors, so they would be despised by their countrymen. Sure enough, IIRC, most, if not all, were killed under “suspicious circumstances” months after the treaty was signed. Does anyone remember this show? Do you know the title and how I can get a copy? ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/45 "2000-10-04T14:34:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stuyguy \* > **all-steel, pointed darts meant to be dropped from airplanes by the bucketful** Jesus fuck, thanks for THAT image. How big were these things? “Ouch! OUCH! Curse you, Red Baron!” sized, or “dead” sized? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/46 "2000-10-04T14:39:08Z")
I’d think anything sharp and pointy dropped from dogfight altitude would be “dead” sized, to be honest with you. If anything is a better example of how war perverts the technology that’s supposed to improve our lives, I can’t think of it. ---
**Author:** ![imthjckaz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/imthjckaz/32/3223_2.png) [@imthjckaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/imthjckaz)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/47 "2000-10-04T16:37:31Z")
I don’t think any war is better than another,people still die. To try and see which one had a bigger influence on popular culture is trite. My dad was a POW for the 4 months of WWII, and I don’t think he really cared how the war affected popular culture. He never talked about his tour of duty. When he passed in 1976, my sister found a canister among his things, that contained notifications from the Army to his mother, first to tell her that he was listed missing in action, and then to tell her that he was a POW. Also included in the canister was a tattered old three pieces of paper, a journal he started the first day he landed in Europe. It told of his first fire fight, the day he was captured by the Germans and his time he served as a POW and the day he described as the happiest day in his life, the day the war ended and he was released, alive. For the first 14 years of my life he was just my Dad, but when I became aware of his actions, he became my hero, too late to let him know. I hope I didn’t get too far off the track here. ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/48 "2000-10-04T16:45:59Z")
“How big were trench darts?” Well, there were several different styles/sizes, IIRC. I think they ranged from about 2 to 4 inches long. But their all-steel makeup gave them obvious heft, so I’d say **Olen** is right: drop them from a plane and we’re talking “dead”-sized. Hey, **Rodd**. What can you tell us about trench darts? (BTW, does **no one** remember the PBS teleplay I described in my previous post?) ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/49 "2000-10-04T17:59:39Z")
Just a quick second to what Rodd Hill said; The Great War and Modern Memory is a masterpiece! ---
**Author:** ![Rodd\_Hill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ab097/32.png) [@Rodd\_Hill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodd_Hill)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/50 "2000-10-04T20:51:48Z")
Well, **stuyguy** what little I know of trench darts is that they probably date from the early- to mid- part of the war, as aerial bombs (including small antipersonnel types) were developed as time went on. I’ve also heard of them referred to as “flechettes,” (French for “little arrow”). I can recall seeing a very “deluxe” version in the Imperial War Museum about 15 years back: brass or bronze, with a large, tapered, pointed bullet head, a thin shaft, and a four-fin tail. Looked like it was machined rather than cast. Probably a good 4 inches overall. On the other hand, I saw some rather crude ones just about a month ago: short, stubby cast lead bullets with a four-fin tail cast in. Maybe 2.5 inches in length. Cheap and nasty. As unsporting as they seem, I think you’d be damn lucky to hit anything with them dropped from a plane (even given the slow speed and low altitude), unless you had a mass target. Although…I did find this reference, in a WWI diary: > [@](#): > > December 24 > Harry Ayres and myself went to Cambrin dump to meet Ted Newton with rations and goose. While going down Railway Alley, we opened up with a strafe and of course Jerry replied. This was at 10.30. While at the dump Jerry started again. We were putting over gas. While we were on the road back Wilsons Way we got caught in another pretty severe strafe, the worst for the night. He had put the trench in in four places. It was Jackaloo scrambling over this part. Just at the end of Wilsons he dropped an aerial dart, one piece hit me on the shoulder, while two hit Ayres, luckily neither of us got cut. Went round the whole of job and made sure all lights were correct. Put three new lights in. Shall go over the whole lot of it again tomorrow morning. The site is [http://members.iinet.net.au/~dodd/gail/memorial/hughie/part\_2.html](http://members.iinet.net.au/~dodd/gail/memorial/hughie/part_2.html) Seems to be the diary of an Australian sapper running pumps, engines, etc. for a tunneling company. Quite interesting reading, actually. I’ll keep looking for more info. ---
**Author:** ![Spider\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Spider\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spider_Woman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/51 "2000-10-04T23:07:52Z")
I have to agree with imthjckaz on that one (even though it goes against my better judgment to agree with my s.o.). I never knew that about his father, either; only that he became the “man of the house” when his dad died. It gave me shivers to read it. I would gladly lose all the art and culture in the world that was spawned by wars if it would save just one life. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2000, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/52 "2000-10-05T00:31:02Z")
Rodd Hill wrote: > [@](#): > > Seems to be the diary of an Australian sapper running pumps, engines, etc. for a tunneling company. Also seems to be laden with so much specialized jargon I couldn’t hope to make heads-or-tails of it without a glossary. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2000, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/53 "2000-10-05T14:13:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stuyguy \* > “How big were trench darts?” > > Well, there were several different styles/sizes, IIRC. I think they ranged from about 2 to 4 inches long. But their all-steel makeup gave them obvious heft, so I’d say **Olen** is right: drop them from a plane and we’re talking “dead”-sized. And they later became a popular yard game. Come on, didn’t everyone have a lawn dart set? **John Corrado,** I haven’t played “Paths of Glory” yet but now you’ve got me on it. Still, I am indebted to the WWII gaming industry not only for many great intense wargames but also for quite a few drunken “Axis and Allies” night-long festas which frequently ended up with the U.S. invading England or some such thing. **Olentzero,** nice spin job, but the creation of a rather murderous dictatorship isn’t very positive no matter how you slice it. Seriously: One thing about WWI was the impact it has on Western civilization and the attitude towards progress. Prior to 1914 the general attitude in the Western world was one of a generally optimistic outlook and a positive view of democracy. WWI changed that; it gave rise to fascism and communism, both of which basically centered on killing people when you toss off the fluff. The optimistic outlook was gone, to a large extent, as you might expect after killing off 10-15 million people for no particular reason. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2000, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/54 "2000-10-05T15:36:33Z")
I do not want to kill off this thread by opening the usual can of worms about my political views, but I do feel compelled to say this: Don’t blame Lenin for Stalin’s excesses. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2000, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/55 "2000-10-05T16:56:27Z")
Olentzero- No, I blame Lenin for LENIN’S excesses. Of which there were a lot. The ONLY thing Lenin didn’t do that Stalin did was to kill fellow communists. It seems as if Stalin did ONE good deed in his life-he made Lenin look good by comparison. But the guy (Lenin) was still a bastard. (Admittedly, I may be biased because of my love for Nicky and his family…) ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2000, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/56 "2000-10-05T17:26:49Z")
Gee, d’you think?! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2000, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/57 "2000-10-05T17:48:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > **John Corrado,** I haven’t played “Paths of Glory” yet but now you’ve got me on it. Still, I am indebted to the WWII gaming industry not only for many great intense wargames but also for quite a few drunken “Axis and Allies” night-long festas which frequently ended up with the U.S. invading England or some such thing. Well, PoG isn’t nearly the “beer 'n pretzels” game that Axis and Allies was/was purported to be, but it’s a damned fascinating game. Lots of back-and-forth (will the Boche’s inital assualt end up taking Paris? Can the French throw enough troops and defenses together in time? Which of Russia and Austria-Hungary will out-pathetic the other? Can the great armies of Germany save Austria and defeat Russia before the great armies of Britain knock out the Ottomans? Will Italy’s joining of the Allies be a boon for them, or for the Central Powers who have a new, very weak front to exploit?), which makes for a very interesting time even when the entire Western Front doesn’t move an inch for a year. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2000, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/58 "2000-10-05T19:44:02Z")
OK, while we’re on the subject of wargaming, what do y’all think of _Diplomacy_? I only played it briefly in high school and read a few articles on strategy from gaming magazines. But it seems like a game worth knowing a lot better. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2000, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/59 "2000-10-05T20:46:25Z")
“Lili Marleen.” Although it was popularized in WW II, it was born in WW I. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2000, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388/60 "2000-10-05T21:13:24Z")
**Olentzero** - It’s an… _intriguing_ game, I’ll say that. Okay, on the plus side- there’s no randomness in the system, so all results are based upon the decisions you and other players make (no complaining later that the dice were agianst you or any such nonsense). It’s detailed and varied enough to be intellectually stimulating without being hard at all to learn. (Simple rules, but a pretty large map with _lots_ of options.) But, on the down side- it’s an unbalanced game. Some countries (Britain and Turkey) are inherently stronger, and some (Italy, Germany, and Austria-Hungary) are inherently weaker. While with experienced players you can turn this strength against them (“If we don’t stop Britain early, he’ll win by default!”), it’s not a guarantee, and it can be _damned_ frustrating to play one of the weaker powers. It also _requires_ seven players; while there are ‘scenarios’ for less, those scenarios are even _more_ unbalanced. So you really need to get six other people together to have a good game. All in all? I’d say mixed. It’s a pretty good game- but there are _much_ better out there. If you’ve got a goodly group of people together and want to try a wargame, pick up Avalon Hill’s _History Of The World_- pretty fast-moving, _very_ easy to learn, relatively historical (which Diplomacy _certainly_ isn’t) and fairly balanced once you grab hold of a few key concepts. If you want something a little more complex, grab Victory Games’ _Pax Britannica_- much more detailed and cumbersome, but a great simulation of the late 19th-early 20th century rush to colonize Africa and Asia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/world-war-i-was-better-than-world-war-ii/35388.md?page=4)