# Worse movie: SUPERMAN RETURNS or MAN OF STEEL? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 29, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worse-movie-superman-returns-or-man-of-steel/723789 "2015-06-29T15:42:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worse-movie-superman-returns-or-man-of-steel/723789/81 "2015-07-02T20:45:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > In MoS, you don’t have that back story. You don’t have this strongly established character trait of not killing people, you don’t have all these stories where he was able to stop villains without killing them, no matter how desperate the situation. By going with Zod right out of the gate, they made Superman killing someone very nearly his first resort, instead of a last, desperate alternative to letting Zod rule the world. Zod should have been saved for the second movie. Give Supes one film where he stands by his values successfully. Then it actually means something when he’s forced into a position where he has to kill to save the world. This is kind of the trap of doing any reboot like this, though. For the people in this thread at least, Superman is well-established as a character and in particular he has this moral ideal of never taking a life. People are arguing that it’s a point against MoS that he breaks this, even though this is a reboot where this moral position isn’t really established. So either we are expected to accept these previously established properties of Superman, in which case they don’t need to be explained in MoS and are just taken as given, or they’re thrown out, in which case killing Zod doesn’t actually contradict anything established about this particular Superman character. Or whatever. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worse-movie-superman-returns-or-man-of-steel/723789/82 "2015-07-02T22:02:34Z")
> [@Cartoonacy](#): > > Anyone ever read Elliot S! Maggin’s Superman novel, _Miracle Monday_? It’s over 30 years old, but in case anyone wants to dig it up, I’ll summarize the ending in a spoiler box: > > A demonic entity possesses a young woman and wreaks havoc in Metropolis. It’s a ploy to corrupt Superman’s soul by forcing him to deliberately kill an innocent, but Superman vows to follow the being and prevent or undo any damage it does, for as long as it takes, rather than harm the woman it possessed. That sounds near-identical to a [Spectre story from 1968](http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Spectre_Vol_1_4) by Neal Adams. I have it in trade paperback, and if the wiki summary of Maggin’s novel is at all accurate, Adams’ story is far superior. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worse-movie-superman-returns-or-man-of-steel/723789/83 "2015-07-02T22:56:20Z")
I’d rather watch either film than see a film referred to as “a wanker”. If you don’t understand the slang, don’t use it. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worse-movie-superman-returns-or-man-of-steel/723789/84 "2015-07-03T00:35:59Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I’d rather watch either film than see a film referred to as “a wanker”. If you don’t understand the slang, don’t use it. I’m aware that wanker originally meant masturbator, but I have also seen it used as a general insult akin to lower. The meaning of words changes over time. It’s not a matter of not understanding it; it’s just a usage different than you’re used to, but clear from context. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worse-movie-superman-returns-or-man-of-steel/723789/85 "2015-07-05T10:19:43Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m aware that wanker originally meant masturbator, but I have also seen it used as a general insult akin to lower. The meaning of words changes over time. It’s not a matter of not understanding it; it’s just a usage different than you’re used to, but clear from context. No, fella, you’ve just used it incorrectly. “Language changes over time” isn’t a valid excuse for just being wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worse-movie-superman-returns-or-man-of-steel/723789/86 "2015-07-05T10:46:01Z")
Zack Snyder, director of MoS defends the destruction caused in the final battle and states that it will be addressed in the new Batman vs Superman movie: [http://www.ew.com/article/2015/07/02/man-steel-ending](http://www.ew.com/article/2015/07/02/man-steel-ending)…-zack-snyder-makes-his-case ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worse-movie-superman-returns-or-man-of-steel/723789/87 "2015-07-05T10:48:59Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m aware that wanker originally meant masturbator, but I have also seen it used as a general insult akin to lower. The meaning of words changes over time. It’s not a matter of not understanding it; it’s just a usage different than you’re used to, but clear from context. It’s not a usage I’ve ever seen, **Skald**. It did sound wrong to me, too. It’s a general insult now, not just masturbator, you’re right there. But it’s a _personal_ pejorative only really applicable to people or anthropomorphisms. The movie can’t be a wanker. Snyder can. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worse-movie-superman-returns-or-man-of-steel/723789/88 "2015-07-05T16:24:46Z")
> [@Uniqueorn](#): > > Zack Snyder, director of MoS defends the destruction caused in the final battle and states that it will be addressed in the new Batman vs Superman movie: [http://www.ew.com/article/2015/07/02/man-steel-ending](http://www.ew.com/article/2015/07/02/man-steel-ending)…-zack-snyder-makes-his-case That just shows that Snyder still doesn’t get what some (many?) felt he did wrong. It wasn’t the destruction, it was Superman not caring. Have him try to move away from population centers while Zod pulls it back. But Snyder couldn’t spare 60 seconds for that. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worse-movie-superman-returns-or-man-of-steel/723789/89 "2015-07-05T19:21:39Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > That just shows that Snyder still doesn’t get what some (many?) felt he did wrong. It wasn’t the destruction, it was Superman not caring. Have him try to move away from population centers while Zod pulls it back. But Snyder couldn’t spare 60 seconds for that. In fact the opposite happens. Superman pulls the fight back to the City. I just wanted to have one or two token rescue scenes. Superman would risk getting beaten by Zod to save someone. he should have done it. ---
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worse-movie-superman-returns-or-man-of-steel/723789/90 "2015-07-05T19:33:38Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > That just shows that Snyder still doesn’t get what some (many?) felt he did wrong. It wasn’t the destruction, it was Superman not caring. Have him try to move away from population centers while Zod pulls it back. But Snyder couldn’t spare 60 seconds for that. These are his first fights. Ever. In life. He’s new at this and he’s scrappy and he’s not up against tomato cans. I’m totally OK with a rookie Superman who doesn’t pop out of the box fully formed. Who’s a little bit overwhelmed and trying his best and doesn’t know exactly what he should be doing while a powerful alien pummels his face. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worse-movie-superman-returns-or-man-of-steel/723789/91 "2015-07-05T20:38:10Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > In fact the opposite happens. Superman pulls the fight back to the City. I just wanted to have one or two token rescue scenes. Superman would risk getting beaten by Zod to save someone. he should have done it. There is the bit where Clark catches that guy who falls out of a helicopter, takes a moment to make sure he’s okay, and then a Kryptonian plows into him at ramming speed, and, _yeah, okay, don’t have to tell me twice; every moment I spend on something other than incapaciting murderous supers, more innocents are at risk._ ---
**Author:** ![stui\_magpie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stui_magpie/32/11010_2.png) [@stui\_magpie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stui_magpie)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worse-movie-superman-returns-or-man-of-steel/723789/92 "2015-07-05T23:24:21Z")
Superman fan of over 4 decades I liked MoS even though the killing at the end jarred with me a bit. Thought it was overall a different take to what I remembered from the comics. Superman Returns I can’t actually remember ever watching, but I was never a massive fan of the Christopher Reeve superman. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worse-movie-superman-returns-or-man-of-steel/723789/93 "2015-07-06T01:06:50Z")
All this said, I am getting excited by the New movie. I like the idea of a World coming to terms with Super Heroes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worse-movie-superman-returns-or-man-of-steel/723789.md?page=4)