# Worshiping Satan: A question for true believers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2011, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480 "2011-06-06T06:19:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/161 "2011-06-11T16:36:38Z")
I’m not sure his first name was “Van”. Transit to his friends, perhaps. Now Jim Morrison, his dad was an Admiral who had something to do with Tonkin Gulf, maybe there’s some devil connections there, given all the bloodshed that led to. Much more indicative, I’d have thought, than a song which is (n’t) about heroin. And Woody Harrelson’s dad was a professional killer who killed a federal judge for a drug lord. Families, eh? Anyway, singing about drugs isn’t exactly prima facie proof of devil worship, especially if you don’t actually do it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/162 "2011-06-11T17:38:56Z")
> [@XXX19](#): > > Thank you. Got first names wrong. You didn’t just get the names wrong, you confused two different people. Van Morrison is alive and there’s nothing Satanic about him. Jim Morrison wasn’t a Satanist, but he did do the dark poet thing. There’s no reason to include Van Morrison in this silliness. > [@](#): > > Someone else agrees with me. Two people can be ridiculously wrong just as easily as one person can. There’s no reason to interpret “girl” as “drugs that work on the hypothalamus” when the more obvious interpretation is that it means “female human being.” The rest of the lyrics don’t suit your interpretation. The full verse is: “Standin’ in the sunlight laughin’ Hidin’ behind a rainbow’s wall Slippin’ and a-slidin’ All along the waterfall” Please tell me how it makes sense if read as: Standin’ in the sunlight laughin’ Hidin’ behind a rainbow’s wall [Injecting heroin] All along the waterfall ---
**Author:** ![XXX19](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@XXX19](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XXX19)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/163 "2011-06-11T17:58:05Z")
I was referring to the guy who sang with the Doors. When I typed it I made a mistake. It’s a matter of interpretation just like a lot of scripture. You have yours and we have ours. I just saw this same thread on from 2007 and you were saying the same things then. But when a guy says he has met Satan several times he is talking about the real thing especially when he’s associated with the guy who started the church. When a performer has 3 dice on his arm that equals 666 he is talking about the real thing - the anti-Christ. Just my humble freaking opinion but I’ve enjoyed this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/164 "2011-06-11T17:59:52Z")
It’s a rock 'n roll song, it’s not scripture. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/165 "2011-06-11T18:29:42Z")
> [@XXX19](#): > > I was referring to the guy who sang with the Doors. When I typed it I made a mistake. Then Brown Eyed Girl is irrelevant to your thread even if it was about heroin. > [@](#): > > It’s a matter of interpretation just like a lot of scripture. Yes and no. You can interpret a song however you like. When you talk about what the artist intended to say when he wrote it, you’re entering a different realm - there are right answers and wrong answers there. What you’ve said about all these performers is factually incorrect. > [@](#): > > But when a guy says he has met Satan several times he is talking about the real thing especially when he’s associated > with the guy who started the church. The comment was an obvious metaphor. > [@](#): > > When a performer has 3 dice on his arm that equals 666 he is talking about the real thing - the anti-Christ. Manson does not believe in that stuff, and he does most of it to be provocative. > [@](#): > > Just my humble freaking opinion but I’ve enjoyed this thread. You can’t defend a statement that is factually incorrect by saying it’s just your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![xoferew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/e9a140/32.png) [@xoferew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xoferew)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/166 "2011-06-11T23:52:06Z")
I get that some people pretend to be Satanists in order to shock their parents or sell records, and I get that some atheistic people subscribe to the Church of Satan as a life philosophy, but what would be the allure of Satan worship to people who believe in the basic mechanics of Christianity and thus believe that they are condemning themselves to an eternity of horrific torture, which seems to be what XXX19 is talking about. I mean, even a small child grasps that it’s not worth it to steal the twix bar if it means daddy’s going to whack them with a belt later. Why would any rational person be interested in the deal? I wouldn’t think Satan would get many takers by actually meeting with people. Better to just seduce them into a sinful life without the Satan-worshiping part, and collect their soul at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/167 "2011-06-12T02:16:04Z")
There’s a FAQ on Theistic Satanism here: [theisticsatanism.com](http://theisticsatanism.com/varieties/FAQ-TS.html) They contrast themselves with LeVay, whom they call a symbolic Satanist. > [@Diane Vera](#): > > The problem here is that nearly all theistic Satanists (1) have had profound spiritual experiences involving Satan, yet (2) regard at least some aspects of Christian theology as absurd. Hence we all must reinterpret the figure of Satan somehow. Even those who claim to be “Bible based” theistic Satanists reinterpret Christian theology enough so that they can see Satan as having at least a chance - if not a guarantee - of winning. So, on what reasonable basis can we classify some interpretations as “true Satanism” and others as not “true Satanism”? I see no good way to draw the line without getting into endless bickering. Furthermore, in my opinion, none of us can really be sure of our interpretation. Hence my preference for an inclusive definition. > > Theistic Satanism is not one single religion. It is a category of religions and spiritualities with the common feature of revering Satan in one way or another. Perhaps it might be more accurate to speak of Satanisms (plural) than Satanism (singular). My summary of Vera is that Theistic Satanists interpret the Dark Lord as a sort of Prometheus character, one who rebels against the Gods in order to extend liberty to humans. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/168 "2011-06-12T02:35:44Z")
> [@XXX19](#): > > Another example is the words “slippin’ and a slidin’” means using a needle for injecting heroin inside your body. 😕 I suppose it could, but in context . . . the interpretation should really be a “horses, not zebras,” thing. And in this usage “horse” does not mean H; it means F. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/169 "2011-06-12T05:08:00Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > There’s a FAQ on Theistic Satanism here: [theisticsatanism.com](http://theisticsatanism.com/varieties/FAQ-TS.html) > > They contrast themselves with LeVay, whom they call a symbolic Satanist. My summary of Vera is that Theistic Satanists interpret the Dark Lord as a sort of Prometheus character, one who rebels against the Gods in order to extend liberty to humans. A cult of that kind – the Gnostic-derived Church of Saint Satan and Pandaemons, described by a local Calvinist bishop as “Christian diabolism” – features in one of the stories in [_The Adventures of Doctor Eszterhazy,_](http://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Doctor-Eszterhazy-Avram-Davidson/dp/0913896284) by [Avram Davidson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avram_Davidson) (set in 19th-Century Europe, in the Triune Monarchy of Scythia-Pannonia-Transbalkania). It’s well worth a read if you can get hold of it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/170 "2011-06-12T05:13:11Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Masculine nouns? No, carnal verbs. ---
**Author:** ![santiago42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@santiago42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/santiago42)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/171 "2011-06-13T02:27:45Z")
> [@XXX19](#): > > Here’s Keith Richards saying he is close to Satan and has even seen him several times. > Now you can stay in self denial all you want. > > * * * > > Keith Richards (2002): “Sympathy is quite an uplifting song. It’s just a matter of looking the Devil in the face. He’s there all the time. I’ve had very close contact with Lucifer - I’ve met him several times. Evil - people tend to bury it and hope it sorts itself out and doesn’t rear its ugly head. Sympathy for the Devil is just as appropriate now, with 9/11. There it is again, big time. When that song was written, it was a time of turmoil. It was the first sort of international chaos since World War II. And confusion is not the ally of peace and love. You want to think the world is perfect. Everybody gets sucked into that. And as America has found out to its dismay, you can’t hide. You might as well accept the fact that evil is there and deal with it any way you can. Sympathy for the Devil is a song that says, Don’t forget him. If you confront him, then he’s out of a job.” (thanks, Bertrand - Paris, France, for above 2) Keith Richards has also admitted to taking a LOT of drugs. Keith himself probably isn’t that certain of what and/or who he’s seen. ---
**Author:** ![Grendel\_s\_Father](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grendel\_s\_Father](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grendel_s_Father)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/172 "2011-06-13T15:05:51Z")
> [@Gilles\_de\_Rais](#): > > Wiccans NEVER wear the pentagram with the point down. > > 30+ years in “the community” and “the season” has nothing to do with it. Guess you were never a second degree Gardnerian (which could arguably be considered the “true” or at least “original” form of Wicca). [http://symboldictionary.net/?p=1893](http://symboldictionary.net/?p=1893) > [@](#): > > A “point down” pentacle is nothing new- nor is it necessarily Satanic when it appears as such. Historical depictions of the pentagram were as likely to be points down as point up- a distinction between one or the other was rarely made by the ancients. Even today, one must not assume a point down pentagram is Satanic, as it is just likely to be Masonic, Wiccan, or simply upside-down. **Some inexperienced Wiccans will occasionally claim that a point down pentacle is Satanic, but such a symbol has at times represented the Wiccan horned God, and is still today an emblem of the Second Degree initiation in Gardnerian Wicca.** (bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/173 "2011-06-13T15:15:39Z")
> [@Gilles\_de\_Rais](#): > > Wiccans NEVER wear the pentagram with the point down. > > 30+ years in “the community” and “the season” has nothing to do with it. _sniff_ I see no reason to waste time talking to a heretic. ---
**Author:** ![Recovering\_Republican](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Recovering\_Republican](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recovering_Republican)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/174 "2011-06-14T12:32:23Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Just saw the flick [Drive Angry](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lshkRGT9uXA). Like almost all Nicholas Cage movies it had no artistic or socially redeeming qualities whatsoever, a weak plot, and was a hellovalot of fun. Fast cars, hot chicks, and lots & lots of guns and [explosions!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2-hiHUh4UQ&NR=1&feature=fvwp) 🆒 > > At one point in the movie the “Accountant” refers to the devil as “Satan”. Which brings me to my question: > > Somewhere in the world there are people who actively worship “Satan”. Why? If one believes that the devil of the bible exists, isn’t this an admission that the god of that bible also exists? Therefore, wouldn’t worshiping said devil be the most dangerous risk in the universe? > > Also, would “Satan” actually want to be called “Satan”? Wouldn’t he rather have his worshipers call him Lord, or at very least his original name of Lucifer? Frankly, I read the bible and have a hard time figuring out which one was the “Evil” one again. God kills millions of people in the bible, everything from killing everyone in the world in the flood to the folks in Sodom for throwing a killer Oscar Party (or something) to killing David and Bathsheba’s baby to show David it was wrong for him to take Urriah’s wife. The number of people Satan kills in the Bible? Ten. The children of Job whom he offs by having a roof fall in on them at dinner, on a bar bet with God that he could get Job to curse God. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/175 "2011-06-14T12:51:01Z")
Yeah, but that’s just proof the Bible is a spawn of the Devil, to discredit God. (I’m not even kidding - some people \*really \*believe that.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/176 "2011-06-14T13:38:52Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Just saw the flick [Drive Angry](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lshkRGT9uXA). Like almost all Nicholas Cage movies it had no artistic or socially redeeming qualities whatsoever, a weak plot, and was a hellovalot of fun. Fast cars, hot chicks, and lots & lots of guns and [explosions!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2-hiHUh4UQ&NR=1&feature=fvwp) 🆒 > > At one point in the movie the “Accountant” refers to the devil as “Satan”. Which brings me to my question: > > Somewhere in the world there are people who actively worship “Satan”. Why? If one believes that the devil of the bible exists, isn’t this an admission that the god of that bible also exists? Therefore, wouldn’t worshiping said devil be the most dangerous risk in the universe? > > Also, would “Satan” actually want to be called “Satan”? Wouldn’t he rather have his worshipers call him Lord, or at very least his original name of Lucifer? Sounds like you missed the single most important line in movie: The Satanic cultists are about to sacrifice the baby. Piper is convinced: “They can **do** it! They’ve found a way to bring Hell to Earth!” THE ACCOUNTANT: Let me let you in on a little secret, Miss. The Dark Lord . . . Satan . . . Beelzebub . . . Lucifer . . . he’s really just the warden of a very large prison. He’s a quiet man, actually, thoughtful, and he’s well-read. And I happen to know that the idea of murdering children in his honor annoys him greatly. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/177 "2011-06-14T16:57:15Z")
> [@XXX19](#): > > I touched a nerve. > > 😃 > One must know the enemy to fight him. > > I READ THE BOOK ROMMEL. I READ HE BOOK. GEN GEORGE S. PATTON. You know we aren’t taking you seriously, right? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/178 "2011-06-14T17:43:52Z")
> [@Recovering\_Republican](#): > > The number of people Satan kills in the Bible? Ten. The children of Job whom he offs by having a roof fall in on them at dinner, on a bar bet with God that he could get Job to curse God. And even with Job’s family, God told Satan to do it: “The LORD said to Satan, ‘Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.’” If you put someone up to a crime, aren’t you also culpable when they carry it out? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/179 "2011-06-14T17:53:47Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > And even with Job’s family, God told Satan to do it: “The LORD said to Satan, ‘Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.’” > > If you put someone up to a crime, aren’t you also culpable when they carry it out? Not if you pay the victim off after the fact, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480/180 "2011-06-14T18:02:41Z")
The real question here is what Satan **is,** assuming he exists. He is variously and, when you think about it, inconsistently conceived of as: 1. God’s dutiful tempter/tester – the “Shaitan,” the “Adversary,” more like a prosecuting attorney than the Enemy of Mankind; that’s role he plays in Job. 2. The tempter-for-the-sake-of-tempting-and-damning – that’s the role he plays in Faust. This one **is** the Enemy of Mankind. Why – why he wants to draw more and more souls into Hell – is not entirely clear. In Marlowe’s _Doctor Faustus,_ Mephistopheles seems to be in love with Faustus and catching his soul is the only way he can think of to consummate his love; but that’s rather a special case without broader theological implications; Mephistopheles himself explains his interest, or that of demons in souls generally, in “misery loves company” terms, which **might** have broader theological implications. In _The Screwtape Letters_ demons are hungry to get souls because souls are their food, but the less said the better of a God Who would set things up **that** way. 3. God’s dutiful jailer/torturer – simply the warden of a very large prison, Hell. A warden, if his job is secure, ordinarily cares little how many more prisoners will come his way. 4. The Avatar of Evil – this Satan has to be evil because he **is** evil, just by definition, like Ahriman in Zoroastrianism. He embodies the principle of evil in the universe. Whatever God loves, he hates, and vice-versa. This at least provides a convenient explanation as to why Satan wants more souls, etc., he’s just evil. 5. The Rebel – The Man Who Would Be King, divine-scale version; that bright angel who durst defy th’Omnipotent to arms, who accounts it better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. This is the Satan with whom many humans – especially Americans – can really **identify.** Which is worth worshiping? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshiping-satan-a-question-for-true-believers/584480.md?page=10)