# Worshipping Graven Images **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315 "2006-01-23T22:24:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/1 "2006-01-23T22:24:08Z")
Why is it that this commandment gets ignored so often by all three Abrahamic religions? The Wailing Wall is a Graven Image The Rock in Mecca is a Graven image The Crucifix is a Graven Image The American Flag is a Graven Image Why are these things so regularly forgotten? Why don’t people realize that a city or a nation can be a graven image? Anything material thing that you are worshipping as of higher spiritual value than any other material thing is worshipping a graven image. In a Macrocosmic context, all material things are of equal value. Within a limited context things have value for a certain time based upon certain criteria. Like a hammer has more value than a screwdriver if you are nailing boards together, but that doesn’t mean that a hammer is ‘holier’ than a screwdriver. It was pointed out on the daily show the other day that a statue of the ten commandments was a graven image. Even the Jehovah’s Witnesses who are against organizations and putting up flags for this reason organize themselves in a fashion that is contrary to what they are saying, though they are one of the only ones that even pays regular lip service to this particular commandment of all that I’ve experienced. So why do you think that this particular commandment is almost completely ignored? Erek ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/2 "2006-01-23T22:26:42Z")
Because “image” doesn’t mean anything you care to pull out of your ass. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/3 "2006-01-23T22:30:35Z")
Since all things change in time, why does this matter to you? Does it really affect you in the grand scale of things? ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/4 "2006-01-23T22:30:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The Wailing Wall is a Graven Image > The Rock in Mecca is a Graven image > The Crucifix is a Graven Image > The American Flag is a Graven Image You didn’t realize that none of these are being “worshipped”, did you? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/5 "2006-01-23T22:33:25Z")
> [@Helen's Eidolon](#): > > Because “image” doesn’t mean anything you care to pull out of your ass. The graven part seems like it would be difficult too, unless you had the right tools. ---
**Author:** ![Hung\_Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hung\_Mung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hung_Mung)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/6 "2006-01-23T22:33:43Z")
Possibly because in application it isn’t terribly relevant to the “real world.” While religious restrictions for violence and diet have reasonable applications to one’s life, putting up a flag or a statue isn’t going to have any kind of direct, drastic effect. It may piss someone off (possibly enough to kill you, which would certainly be a direct and drastic effect) but it doesn’t really hurt anybody. Plus, people seem to be forgiving if something looks nice on the mantle. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/7 "2006-01-23T22:34:31Z")
Please look up the difference between “latreia” and “doulia”. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/8 "2006-01-23T22:36:37Z")
Can a mod please move this to Great Debates. It wasn’t supposed to be in the BBQ Pit. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/9 "2006-01-23T22:38:11Z")
Plus I think the OP is twisting people’s motives in a way. To show respect towards an object because of the abstract idea it represents isn’t truly worship. I’m sure that many people would gladly dive behind that “graven image” of the ten commandments to dodge gunfire, rather than placing themselves in front of it to preserve it. When it comes right down to it for most people, the object is replaceable, the ideas it represents remain, and if the object must be sacrificed to preserve life, than so be it. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/10 "2006-01-23T22:39:04Z")
The theological experts of some 2.5 billion odd people disagree with your concept of “graven image.” I don’t care what you think a graven image is, but, uh, good luck with this one, Erek, ---
**Author:** ![Hung\_Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hung\_Mung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hung_Mung)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/11 "2006-01-23T22:40:23Z")
Oh wait, we’re panning this one? Back to the drawing board. I’ll go think of something more Pit-appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/12 "2006-01-23T22:41:32Z")
> [@yBeayf](#): > > Please look up the difference between “latreia” and “doulia”. So that accounts for Catholicism and it’s dogmas. What about the rest? And for those disputing them being worshipped. If people are willing to kill over these objects, can you please explain how this is not worship? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/13 "2006-01-23T22:42:49Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Can a mod please move this to Great Debates. It wasn’t supposed to be in the BBQ Pit. Oh, sure, wait until I make a poop joke before you mention it. Now **tomndebb** is going to think I’m low class… Off to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/14 "2006-01-23T22:42:43Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > The theological experts of some 2.5 billion odd people disagree with your concept of “graven image.” > > I don’t care what you think a graven image is, but, uh, good luck with this one, Erek, And yet they fight wars over those images. Ironic isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/15 "2006-01-23T22:47:00Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > And yet they fight wars over those images. Ironic isn’t it? No they don’t, and no it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/16 "2006-01-23T22:50:51Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The Wailing Wall is a Graven Image > The Rock in Mecca is a Graven image > The Crucifix is a Graven Image > The American Flag is a Graven Image The only one of those that’s a graven image is the crucifix. The Wailing Wall is graven, but not an image, and the Ka’aba in Mecca and the American Flag are neither graven nor images. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/17 "2006-01-23T22:52:38Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So that accounts for Catholicism and it’s dogmas. What about the rest? > > And for those disputing them being worshipped. If people are willing to kill over these objects, can you please explain how this is not worship? People are willing to kill for the promotion of ideas that they feel are correct. If killing is done for objects, it would be for oil, fertile land, or other resources the people killing want. By your logic, the person who posted the thread “I’d kill for a bloody fag” recently worships cigarettes. I’d say you have a problem telling the difference between tangible things, and the abstract ideas the things have come to represent. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/18 "2006-01-23T22:52:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No they don’t, and no it isn’t. So you are saying that there is no dispute about who should control the hill where the temple was? You’re saying that Israelis and Palestinians do not kill each other over that particular piece of land? Are you perhaps implying that back in 2000 when Sharon visited the area that Palestinians didn’t rise up into further violence? What if I piss on a Cross or the flag in public? Are you implying that I wouldn’t get beaten up? Are you implying that it wouldn’t anger people? If they aren’t ‘worshipping’ it, then what does it matter? What if I go through the effort of building that crucifix myself and then piss on it? It’s something that _I_ built, that _I_ paid for. What if I did that in a public place in say, Georgia? Are you saying that there would be no violent reaction to it? Erek ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/19 "2006-01-23T22:55:43Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What if I piss on a Cross or the flag in public? Are you implying that I wouldn’t get beaten up? Erek I don’t worship my car, but if I catch you pissing on it, I’m liable to slap you around a bit. Doesn’t make my car a “graven image”. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/20 "2006-01-23T22:56:48Z")
Again, you don’t get the idea that people are upset because you are showing tangible, physical disrespect for an idea that they hold precious, via doing something to an object that represents such ideas. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315.md?page=2)