# Worshipping Graven Images **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315 "2006-01-23T22:24:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/21 "2006-01-23T22:57:22Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > The only one of those that’s a graven image is the crucifix. The Wailing Wall is graven, but not an image, and the Ka’aba in Mecca and the American Flag are neither graven nor images. They didn’t have printing presses back then. But then if you want to go with semantics, then I’ll just switch to the word “Idolatry”. **Zabali\_Clawbane** I would argue that the people killing for them have trouble differentiating between the tangible things and the abstractions that they represent. There is also a commandment “Thou shalt not kill”, and yet they keep doing it for the 'abstractions". As I asked miller, if I were to go piss on the Ka’aba do you think that I wouldn’t be killed? Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/22 "2006-01-23T22:58:39Z")
> [@Duke of Rat](#): > > I don’t worship my car, but if I catch you pissing on it, I’m liable to slap you around a bit. Doesn’t make my car a “graven image”. What if I bought a car like yours parked it next to yours and then pissed on MY car. Would you slap me around a bit? Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/23 "2006-01-23T22:59:57Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > Again, you don’t get the idea that people are upset because you are showing tangible, physical disrespect for an idea that they hold precious, via doing something to an object that represents such ideas. If it takes the place of a golden calf, and it is treated like a golden calf, then it might as well be a golden calf. Erek ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/24 "2006-01-23T23:05:46Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > If it takes the place of a golden calf, and it is treated like a golden calf, then it might as well be a golden calf. > > Erek Cha-Ching!!! I’ve always thought that the unwritten injunction was “Thou shalt make no graven images (of other Gods).” This is why the golden calf was a no-no, but the ark of the covenent, what with its cherubim and seraphim is hunky-dory. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/25 "2006-01-23T23:07:47Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > Cha-Ching!!! I’ve always thought that the unwritten injunction was “Thou shalt make no graven images (of other Gods).” > > This is why the golden calf was a no-no, but the ark of the covenent, what with its cherubim and seraphim is hunky-dory. Well Judaism is pretty much against even trying to define God. So making a graven image of any God would be a testament to a false God. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/26 "2006-01-23T23:11:52Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > Cha-Ching!!! I’ve always thought that the unwritten injunction was “Thou shalt make no graven images (of other Gods).” > > This is why the golden calf was a no-no, but the ark of the covenent, what with its cherubim and seraphim is hunky-dory. Well Judaism is pretty much against even trying to define God. So making a graven image of any God would be a testament to a false God. The Ark of the Covenant is a tough example. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/27 "2006-01-23T23:15:26Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > But then if you want to go with semantics, then I’ll just switch to the word “Idolatry”. Ok, fine, and none of those, again with the possible exception of the crucifix count as idols. The Western Wall is a retaining wall, the Ka’aba is a meteor, and the flag is…well, a flag. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/28 "2006-01-23T23:21:08Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > What if I bought a car like yours parked it next to yours and then pissed on MY car. Would you slap me around a bit? > > Erek I might, but not because you pissed on your own car. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/29 "2006-01-23T23:30:09Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well Judaism is pretty much against even trying to define God. So making a graven image of any God would be a testament to a false God. > > The Ark of the Covenant is a tough example. Can we make a distinction between worship and respect or honor? It is certainly possible to honor some thing or idea even to the extent of being willing to die for it, without worshipping it. One definition of “worship” noted [here](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/worship) is “the reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.” In the same online dictionary, “sacred” is defined as “dedicated to, or set apart for, worship of a deity.” You would have to ask those who reverence (another alternative word to “worship”) holy sites like the Wailing Wall or Mecca, or holy objects like the Ark of the Covenant, or holy symbols like a crucifix, how what they are doing is not in violation of that commandment. I am sure they have yards of books on the subject. But these definitions would seem to preclude consideration of such secular objects as the U.S. flag. For me, I’ve always taken this commandment (for what little consideration I have given it, being an atheist) to mean two things: don’t make or worship images of other deities, and don’t attempt to make an image of the biblical god. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/30 "2006-01-23T23:36:43Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So you are saying that there is no dispute about who should control the hill where the temple was? You’re saying that Israelis and Palestinians do not kill each other over that particular piece of land? Are you perhaps implying that back in 2000 when Sharon visited the area that Palestinians didn’t rise up into further violence? Oh, sure, they fight wars over _land_. Everyone fights wars over land. You said people fight wars over _images_. > [@](#): > > What if I piss on a Cross or the flag in public? Are you implying that I wouldn’t get beaten up? Are you implying that it wouldn’t anger people? If they aren’t ‘worshipping’ it, then what does it matter? What if I go through the effort of building that crucifix myself and then piss on it? It’s something that _I_ built, that _I_ paid for. What if I did that in a public place in say, Georgia? Are you saying that there would be no violent reaction to it? You said, “fight a war,” not “get beaten up.” But, what the hell, let’s define “war” as loosely as you’ve defined “graven” and “image.” Yes, you might get beaten up for either of those acts. But the Biblical injunction is against “worship.” People will beat you up for pissing on the flag because they place a great deal of emotional importance on their country, of which the flag is a symbol. This is not the same as “worship.” If you pissed on a picture of some guy’s mother, he’s probably going to beat you up, but that doesn’t mean he worships his mother, it just means that he cares a lot about her and doesn’t like people disrespecting her. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/31 "2006-01-23T23:40:53Z")
After handing down the Ten Commandments, God immediately turns around and commands that an altar be built to him. So evidently it’s possible to use material things as a focus for worship without falling into the sin of idolatry. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/32 "2006-01-23T23:53:03Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Why don’t people realize that a city or a nation can be a graven image? Because they cannot? > [@](#): > > Anything material thing that you are worshipping as of higher spiritual value than any other material thing is worshipping a graven image. No, it is not, and you are off on another of your flights of semantic fantasy. You could probably have a merry round of condemnation for people who invest more respect in inanimate objects than you would like to see (carefully failing to distinguish between the representation and the value it represents), but you have framed the debate in a way that will waste thousands of innocent electrons to bickering over whether you know what you’re talking about. “There’s glory for you.” ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/33 "2006-01-23T23:56:16Z")
As others are doing a pretty good job dealing with (what I agree) is your misunderstanding of “graven image” and “worshipping” - The idolatry/graven image commandment is not even remotely ignored. “Is money/your job/your home/your possessions/popularity/beauty and diet/television/etc. your idol?” is a frequent sermon (and sunday school and bible study) topic. It comes up all the time. It’s very unlikely that I’m going to make a carving, stick it in my room, and pray to it. (For one, I can’t carve at all). I can and do slip into the position where I put one of those other items in a place that occupies space or time that God should occupy or I begin to rely on one of those items in situations where I should be relying on God. While I can’t speak to the practices of all churches, I’ve heard no shortage of talks on this topic in the churches I’ve attended or visited. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/34 "2006-01-24T00:23:36Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well Judaism is pretty much against even trying to define God. So making a graven image of any God would be a testament to a false God. So then…we’re in agreement, then? ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/35 "2006-01-24T00:44:48Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > And for those disputing them being worshipped. If people are willing to kill over these objects, can you please explain how this is not worship? If you’re basing your argument on some freakish definition of “worship”, it would certainly be better to state that definition in your OP. The Commandment in question is against bowing down and serving any image or the likeness of anything in heaven or earth or in the waters. That is, against “worshipping” the _image itself_. The selfsame people whom Moses was instructing bowed down before the Ark of the Covenant as an image _representing_ G-d. Yet, clearly, reverence to the Ark was worship of G-d, and therefore not in violation of this Commandment; prayers and veneration were offered to G-d, not to the Ark itself (as had been the case with the Golden Calf). The Ark was not present to represent G-d, nor to stand in for G-d. Likewise, worshippers at the Wailing Wall, at the Rock of the Kaaba in Mecca, with a crucifix, or before an American flag, are addressing their worship to G-d. Or are you suggesting that people don’t want you spitting on or burning the American flag because they’re expecting the _flag_ itself to answer their prayers about the Superbowl point spread? It’s also certainly worth noting that some religions that have “the Ten Commandments” may not even have one about graven images. There are [several versions](http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm) of the Ten Commandments – including two versions that don’t match exactly given in the Bible itself. You shouldn’t be worrying about graven images, really. You should be worried about in which month you’re keeping that feast of the unleavened bread… ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/36 "2006-01-24T01:07:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Well Judaism is pretty much against even trying to define God. So making a graven image of any God would be a testament to a false God. Yep. Orthodox believe the same, with one small catch: God became a human and walked around and touched stuff and was seen by people, so we can depict Him in that way, with icons of Christ. To attempt to make an image of God in His essence (i.e. God _qua_ God) is both impossible and forbidden. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/37 "2006-01-24T01:07:33Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The Ark of the Covenant is a tough example. I dunno about worship, but I’ll look favourably on anything that can melt Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/38 "2006-01-24T01:22:13Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > There is also a commandment “Thou shalt not kill” That’s a mistranslation of the Hebrew. The commandment is “Thou shalt not _murder_”, not “Thou shalt not kill”. If you read it as “Thou shalt not kill,” you quickly run into a contradiction- the Torah mandates the death penalty for several offenses, including murder. If no one is ever supposed to kill anyone else, how could that be carried out? ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/39 "2006-01-24T01:28:12Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > After handing down the Ten Commandments, God immediately turns around and commands that an altar be built to him. So evidently it’s possible to use material things as a focus for worship without falling into the sin of idolatry. > [@](#): > > You may build alters from stone, but if you do, then use only uncut stones. \ And don’t make steps for the alter, or someone might look up beneath the skirts of your clothing and see your nakedness. EXODUS 20:26 I love that part. In the same book it says > [@](#): > > You shall not make yourselves any idols; any images resembling animals, birds or fish 20:4 These passages are from my copy of **The Living Bible- Catholic Edition** 1984 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/40 "2006-01-24T01:28:28Z")
Actually, although this entire topic is IMO a bad excuse for a semantic nitpick, **mswas** has a point: “Idolatry” can mean, not merely the worship of a false god, but the putting of anything else in the place that is rightfully God’s. (Presuming you’re a believer; the idea of what an atheist or agnostic might consider ‘idolatry’ is a mind-stretcher, but one that thankfully I don’t have to deal with! ;)) Money, possessions, ‘success,’ the environment, an ideology, a sports team, teen idols (note the choice of term), movie stars, a President or other leader, the Virgin Mary, the Bible: all these can be put in the place of God, and when they are, it’s a form of idolatry. “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315.md?page=3)