# Worshipping Graven Images **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315 "2006-01-23T22:24:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/61 "2006-01-28T01:01:11Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Yes, One can worship an object, but I think you could count on one hand the people who are dumb enough to think any object is worthy of worship. In olden days they did believe things had special powers and some did worship idols, but most people with half a brain know better now days. But they often do not know better than to think, for example, that the advancement of their political ideology is the reason-of-being of their life…nay, of human history itself. Or that pursuit of a particular source of pleasure or power or wealth displaces all other pursuits to the detriment of even the essentials of human dignity. Or that the symbols of their values not only should be respected, but should be reverenced and privileged even by those who do not share those values. That is modern idolatry. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/62 "2006-01-28T01:31:53Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > But they often do not know better than to think, for example, that the advancement of their political ideology is the reason-of-being of their life…nay, of human history itself. Or that pursuit of a particular source of pleasure or power or wealth displaces all other pursuits to the detriment of even the essentials of human dignity. Or that the symbols of their values not only should be respected, but should be reverenced and privileged even by those who do not share those values. That is modern idolatry. Can I get an Amen! And btw, you’re city is my new favorite idol. I absolutely adore it! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/63 "2006-01-28T12:06:28Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > This is a fallacy. It’s not about God’s ego, it’s a commandment against self-delusion. It’s not for God’s benefit, it’s for yours. Basically if you think that God is present more in one spot than another, you are deluded as to the nature of God. God is everpresent. > > As for all the comments about the altars of the jews, I believe that the commandment to make the altars out of rough stone or dirt shows that there was an accounting for idolatry as part of the altar making process, as they were forbidden to make it into something that they would be sad if they lost. I believe the point was that the altar would be replaceable no matter where they were or their financial status. > > Erek That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, however if God is ‘everpresent’ then he is in the object being worshiped. God is said to have made the imperfect people who for lack of knowledge of such a God, worship a person ,place, or thing. There fore He is at fault, If being worshipped is so important to Him then it is sad indeed. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/64 "2006-01-28T12:15:41Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > This is a fallacy. It’s not about God’s ego, it’s a commandment against self-delusion. It’s not for God’s benefit, it’s for yours. Basically if you think that God is present more in one spot than another, you are deluded as to the nature of God. God is everpresent. > > As for all the comments about the altars of the jews, I believe that the commandment to make the altars out of rough stone or dirt shows that there was an accounting for idolatry as part of the altar making process, as they were forbidden to make it into something that they would be sad if they lost. I believe the point was that the altar would be replaceable no matter where they were or their financial status. > > Erek To add to my other reply: It is what you believe of God’s, nature, not what the nature of God is.There is no human alive who can truly know the nature of God (except by Faith) which can be false, and ther are many people who have a different belief as to the nature of their God. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/65 "2006-01-28T13:32:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > As for all the comments about the altars of the jews, I believe that the commandment to make the altars out of rough stone or dirt shows that there was an accounting for idolatry as part of the altar making process, as they were forbidden to make it into something that they would be sad if they lost. I believe the point was that the altar would be replaceable no matter where they were or their financial status. If I recall aright, God explains that the reason for making the altar out of dirt or uncut stone is that the altar would be contaminated by the use of tools. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/66 "2006-01-30T15:56:26Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, however if God is ‘everpresent’ then he is in the object being worshiped. God is said to have made the imperfect people who for lack of knowledge of such a God, worship a person ,place, or thing. There fore He is at fault, If being worshipped is so important to Him then it is sad indeed. > > Monavis Well I suppose one can anthropomorphize God any way that they want. And thanks for being so magnanimous about me holding my own opinon. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/67 "2006-01-30T19:48:43Z")
mswas: > [@](#): > > As for all the comments about the altars of the jews, I believe that the commandment to make the altars out of rough stone or dirt shows that there was an accounting for idolatry as part of the altar making process, as they were forbidden to make it into something that they would be sad if they lost. Incorrect. The reason for not using hewn stone in an altar is because iron represents implements of bloodshed, and the altar is intended to be an instrument of extending human life, not ending it. So allowing a “sword” to be used in the creation of the altar would corrupt it. The verse is very expicit regarding the “sword” connection. Although (in composing this post) I have discovered that most Christian translations use the word “tool” in that verse, the Hebrew original says “charbecha,” which means “your sword”. (Translation of Exodus 20:22 from _The Living Torah_: When you eventually build a stone altar for me, do not build it out of hewn stone. Your sword will have been lifted against it, you will have profaned it.") ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/68 "2006-01-30T20:11:30Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > mswas: > > Incorrect. The reason for not using hewn stone in an altar is because iron represents implements of bloodshed, and the altar is intended to be an instrument of extending human life, not ending it. So allowing a “sword” to be used in the creation of the altar would corrupt it. The verse is very expicit regarding the “sword” connection. Although (in composing this post) I have discovered that most Christian translations use the word “tool” in that verse, the Hebrew original says “charbecha,” which means “your sword”. (Translation of Exodus 20:22 from _The Living Torah_: When you eventually build a stone altar for me, do not build it out of hewn stone. Your sword will have been lifted against it, you will have profaned it.") Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Ty\_Cobb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee59a6/32.png) [@Ty\_Cobb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ty_Cobb)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/69 "2006-02-01T00:16:04Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So why do you think that this particular commandment is almost completely ignored? Because it makes no sense. It’s simply completely wrong. Face it, they just wanted a luck number and padded the list. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/70 "2006-02-01T05:36:26Z")
> [@Ty Cobb](#): > > Because it makes no sense. It’s simply completely wrong. Face it, they just wanted a luck number and padded the list. Cite for either assertion? ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Citizen\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Citizen_Bob)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/71 "2006-02-01T16:50:26Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So why do you think that this particular commandment is almost completely ignored? Because worshipping any image, man, beast or historical figure (in my experience) ends up in bad news for everyone. The wrong person gets a hold of interpreting any one of them, and surrounding organizations (+ people) get completely screwed. I’ve seen a few people hang onto stuff like that until their dying day – facilitating their ultimate insanity. IMHO, Moses was smart enough to realize that the only way to make a religion unkillable is to detach it from worshipping anything or anyone transient or attached to the solid universe. ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Citizen\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Citizen_Bob)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/72 "2006-02-01T16:55:36Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well Judaism is pretty much against even trying to define God. So making a graven image of any God would be a testament to a false God. From my understanding, you’re half-right. It’s not against defining God… In fact it’s encouraged, individually – never taking the previous definition as “gospel” :). Of course, I was hanging around a bunch of Reforms at the time, so I’m sure Orthodox is very different. ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Citizen\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Citizen_Bob)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/73 "2006-02-01T17:06:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nevertheless, many Protestants have regarded the Catholic and Orthodox practice of praying to crucifixes and saints’ images as idolatrous. During the Byzantine Empire there was an iconoclast movement based on the same idea. And some religious sects, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses, will not salute the American flag because they regard that as idol-worship. Having grown up Catholic, I was indeed encouraged to “revere” sacred objects – and when I refused, I got some death-looks. They way that it was explained to me, at the time was this… If a represents a mystical part of b, and b = c, and (at the same time) c is equiv to d, then a is at the same level as d, but not d. Thus, many pray AT the statues of Jesus, Mary, etc… and if the statue “has been Blessed” so it has a connection to Jesus for you to talk to him – and the Jesus is equivalent to God, and so, praying to the statue is like praying to Jesus’s extension cord w/ ear attached. I know I was just a kid, but that’s how far the Religion teacher had to go to convince me I wasn’t going to hell for praying in front of a statue of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/74 "2006-02-02T12:43:00Z")
> [@Citizen Bob](#): > > Having grown up Catholic, I was indeed encouraged to “revere” sacred objects – and when I refused, I got some death-looks. > > They way that it was explained to me, at the time was this… If a represents a mystical part of b, and b = c, and (at the same time) c is equiv to d, then a is at the same level as d, but not d. > > Thus, many pray AT the statues of Jesus, Mary, etc… and if the statue “has been Blessed” so it has a connection to Jesus for you to talk to him – and the Jesus is equivalent to God, and so, praying to the statue is like praying to Jesus’s extension cord w/ ear attached. I know I was just a kid, but that’s how far the Religion teacher had to go to convince me I wasn’t going to hell for praying in front of a statue of Jesus. That teacher(according to the many Catholics I know) was wrong. The Catholics tell me that praying before a statue(Not to it) just is an aid on keeping their mind on God. It was not because the Statue was blessed and not all statues are blessed. The statue has no powers so to pray to it is foolish. They do pray to saints and ask them to pray to God for them, just as people ask other people to pray. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Citizen\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Citizen_Bob)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/75 "2006-02-02T16:58:55Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > That teacher(according to the many Catholics I know) was wrong. The Catholics tell me that praying before a statue(Not to it) just is an aid on keeping their mind on God. It was not because the Statue was blessed and not all statues are blessed. The statue has no powers so to pray to it is foolish. They do pray to saints and ask them to pray to God for them, just as people ask other people to pray. > > Monavis Did your friends have the “Scapular” mysticism? [The little icon & bible quote you’re supposed to wear around your neck as a chiled – so that if you die with it on, you go straight to heaven] These are the types in my church, including the teacher. I was under the impression that it was mainstream 70’s Catholic stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Citizen\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Citizen_Bob)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2006, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/76 "2006-02-02T17:04:58Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > The Catholics tell me that praying before a statue(Not to it) just is an aid on keeping their mind on God. … and when I refused to go up and kiss, genuflect or worship a box that supposedly contained a relic wooden element of the “Real” Jesus-Cross, people got stressed. I am fairly sure that teacher explained it consistently within their own belief-circle. I guess might be that things have changed since Vatical-II, these things and explanations I’ve mentioned might just be left-overs that certain families and priests just couldn’t let go. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/77 "2006-02-03T04:15:36Z")
**CitizenBob** I kind of see it as forcing your own sentimentality into someone else’s faith. I have experienced people having some sentimental love for objects in their faith, but I don’t mind it so much when they talk to you about the heritage of people they knew, and other relate it to a lineage of real people who passed down that tradition, and that I find to be cool, but I don’t like having sentimentality forced upon me. It’s like all the hipsters that were about 10 years before me and had some love for some pop culture thing from the 80s when I was a little kid and they told me I “HAD” to like it, because it’s so cool. When I was younger I didn’t really understand sentimentality at all and prided myself on not being sentimental. Anywhere here’s a guy who gets it: [http://krullraves.ytmnd.com/](http://krullraves.ytmnd.com/) ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/78 "2006-02-03T12:23:13Z")
> [@Citizen Bob](#): > > … and when I refused to go up and kiss, genuflect or worship a box that supposedly contained a relic wooden element of the “Real” Jesus-Cross, people got stressed. I am fairly sure that teacher explained it consistently within their own belief-circle. > > I guess might be that things have changed since Vatical-II, these things and explanations I’ve mentioned might just be left-overs that certain families and priests just couldn’t let go. It may be some mis-informed Catholic or one that thinks by making up something will help to convert a non Catholic but most will revere the person not the object, just as I have seen people kiss the photo of one of their loved ones. I do know a few Catholics who in trying to convert me have made up some big stories but when I called them on it they apoligized. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315/79 "2006-02-04T02:41:06Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Can I get an Amen! And btw, you’re city is my new favorite idol. I absolutely adore it! Why, thank you. I cherish and respect it quite a bit myself, though it often aggravates and vexes me greatly 🆒 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worshipping-graven-images/341315.md?page=3)