# Worst best friends in literature **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 15, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848 "2009-06-15T17:04:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/41 "2009-06-16T21:41:30Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I knew someone would bring this up. I have two fanwanks for it: > > 1. Simple security. The more people he made contact with, the more likely it was that Moriarty’s organization would find something out. Going to Mycroft was one thing; he had the resources to help Holmes, which Watson did not. Also, more cynically, I think if Watson had to choose one of them to endanger, he was going to choose Mycroft, because he liked Watson a lot more. > > 2. Holmes did die at Reichenbach. Everything after that is a fiction. (Obviously I’m playing the Great Game with this one.) > > I go with 2, personally. The first isn’t much of a fanwank, as I belive it is more or less the reason Holmes actually gave for the omission in _The Empty House_, with the exception of the bit about liking Watson more. Plus, Mycroft was a riddle wrapped in an enigma who was well used to having lots of secrets through his government work. Watson was a more open sort. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/42 "2009-06-17T00:06:30Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > On Hamlet, it’s never explicitly clear if R&G knew. _Hamlet_ thought they did, and the letter was sealed simply because it was a royal message. This, of course, is part of his general unbalancing of the mind. This is correct, they may have been totally ignorant of Claudius’s scheme. In Stoppard’s _Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead_ they DO know because they open the letter, although only after they are well on their way to England. After some discussion they basically decide “Who are we to go against the king?” and intend to go through with the plan. Although in _R&G Are Dead_ the two don’t really seem to know Hamlet all that well (it’s suggested that this is because they didn’t even exist until shortly before they were needed “onstage” in _Hamlet_). Thinking of Jane Austen again, although Emma Woodhouse has more-or-less good intentions she’s actually a terrible friend to Harriet Smith and comes close to ruining her chances at a happy marriage and respectable life. Although Emma believes she’s grooming her new friend for marriage to a gentleman, there’s essentially zero chance that this will ever happen. (Harriet has little going for her but her looks, and all the eligible gentlemen in the area are already interested in other women.) Harriet would, at best, have wound up either Emma’s totally subservient spinster companion or perhaps some gentleman’s _mistress_. Without Emma’s interference Harriet would have had the same happy ending she gets at the end of the book, only much sooner. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/43 "2009-06-17T00:29:48Z")
Two genre books here, not sure if ‘literature’ would describe either one of 'em, but… _Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy_ novels - Arthur/Ford and Ford/Zaphod. Admittedly, Douglas Adams doesn’t really do ‘relationships’ in these books at all – aside from Arthur/Fenchurch, and I don’t even remember that very well – but there’s a remoteness in the men’s interactions that always bugs me a bit when I read the books. They get irritated with one another pretty easily, rarely defend one another (though Ford shows some signs of protectiveness with Arthur, such as when the mice are after the earthman’s brain), and give up entirely on each other for years at a time. I admit it’d be daft to expect anything better from Zaphod, who sometimes behaves like a sociopath, but I think more highly of Ford and so my expectations are higher too. I mean, sure, the books are light-hearted comedies and Adams wasn’t much for sincerity or warmth; such emotions are usually beyond the scope of the series. I adore the first three books, make no mistake. Still, I always wish I could engage a bit more with the characters than I do. I hope this isn’t too blasphemous! _Harry Potter_ series: No, I don’t mean Harry/Ron/Hermione. They’re pretty good examples of close friends with good relationships. I mean … is Harry as good a friend to Ron and Hermione as they are to him? Probably not, though I’ll leave that to others to decide. I think he’s self-involved, understandably so, but he still manages to be quite supportive. Spoilers below for _Prisoner of Azkaban_ and subsequent books: [spoiler]But the “worst best friends” I mean are the so-called Marauders, i.e. James, Sirius, Remus and Peter. On the plus side, there’s no doubt that James, Sirius and Peter behaved generously by learning to become Animorphmagi to keep Remus company; they kept his secret for quite a while, too. Sirius clearly thought the world of James and, I expect, vice versa. On the downside: James and Sirius seemed to have looked on Peter with benign contempt, like smug, benevolent celebrity rockstars bestowing grace upon a roadie. Meanwhile, Sirius callously pulled a ‘prank’ on Snape hoping to let Werewolf!Remus attack/scare Snape, apparently not giving a crap that if Werewolf!Remus killed Snape, it would _at least_ result in Remus being tossed out of Hogwarts, and quite possibly imprisoned if not outright executed. (Not to mention that gentle Remus would’ve been personally devastated.) After graduating, Sirius (possibly due to Peter’s influence) believed Remus was a spy, and apparently convinced James that Remus was untrustworthy, which is what led to Peter being the Secret Keeper in the first place. There appears to have been a rift between James/Sirius/Peter and Remus, evidenced by the distance between them in the photo of the Order of the Phoenix; this may have been because of Peter’s trying to stir up suspicion. And of course, all this led up to Peter performing the ultimate act of betrayal that got James and his wife killed, Sirius arrested and basically tortured for the crime, and Remus left friendless & alone. Whew. With best friends like these…![/spoiler] _Edited to Add:_ ooh **Lamia** , Emma/Harriet is a _great_ example!! Spot on. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/44 "2009-06-17T00:53:47Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > My understanding of Holmes’ character is that he is somewhat cold and dispassionate in demeanor - but that he deeply cares for Watson as a friend. > > The two worst things he ever did to Watson are: > > 1. Above all else, failing to tell Watson he was alive after his encounter with Moriarty; he certainly has his reasons, but clearly Watson found this wounding. > > 2. In _The Devil’s Foot_, using Watson as a guinea pig for testing what he suspects is a deadly drug - but to be fair he uses himself as well (and Watson saves him). Watson rightly points out that this is idiotic. Also, in _The Devil’s Foot_, Holmes is extremely apologetic about his idiocy. I thought the jerkiest thing Holmes ever did was in a short story (can’t remember the name) where Mrs. Hudson called for Watson because Holmes appeared to be dying. Watson rushes over and tries to treat Holmes, but Holmes refuses to let him anywhere near, saying that Watson was completely incompetent. Then he demands that Watson fetch a certain expert on (I think) Amazonian poisons. Watson summons the expert, and begs Holmes to let him stay. Holmes lets him hide behind his headboard to listen in, and then just about forgets he’s there. Turns out the expert had sent a poisoned trap to Holmes, Holmes faked dying to get a confession out of the expert, and Watson was there to witness it. But, of course, while it occurred to Holmes that he could have let Watson into the ruse, he didn’t because he didn’t believe Watson could act well enough to fake out the expert. Hmph. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/45 "2009-06-17T02:54:34Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You are confusing Holmes & House. You know, I have been told that I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I really am stunned that I never noticed House = Holmes until just now. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/46 "2009-06-17T02:57:34Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > You know, I have been told that I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I really am stunned that I never noticed House = Holmes until just now. And Wilson = Watson. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/47 "2009-06-17T02:58:32Z")
Yeah. I see Wilson = Watson now. I am seeing lots of parrallels now. But how is it I never seen it before. I watch House whenever I can. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/48 "2009-06-17T05:56:04Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Thinking of Jane Austen again, although Emma Woodhouse has more-or-less good intentions she’s actually a terrible friend to Harriet Smith and comes close to ruining her chances at a happy marriage and respectable life. Although Emma believes she’s grooming her new friend for marriage to a gentleman, there’s essentially zero chance that this will ever happen. (Harriet has little going for her but her looks, and all the eligible gentlemen in the area are already interested in other women.) Harriet would, at best, have wound up either Emma’s totally subservient spinster companion or perhaps some gentleman’s _mistress_. Without Emma’s interference Harriet would have had the same happy ending she gets at the end of the book, only much sooner. While I agree with all of this, it seems to me that Emma’s figuring this out on her own (and thus becoming a better person and a better friend) is sort of the point of the book. I don’t think it quite fits into the same category as Ermengarde, who is a crap friend because she’s dumb as a brick, and never gets better. Kitty Forster is a dreadful friend to Lydia Bennett. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/49 "2009-06-17T06:39:10Z")
O’Brien was Smith’s friend at first. Then… ---
**Author:** ![Damfino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Damfino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damfino)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/50 "2009-06-17T09:10:22Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > Also, in _The Devil’s Foot_, Holmes is extremely apologetic about his idiocy. > > I thought the jerkiest thing Holmes ever did was in a short story (can’t remember the name) where Mrs. Hudson called for Watson because Holmes appeared to be dying. Watson rushes over and tries to treat Holmes, but Holmes refuses to let him anywhere near, saying that Watson was completely incompetent. Then he demands that Watson fetch a certain expert on (I think) Amazonian poisons. > > Watson summons the expert, and begs Holmes to let him stay. Holmes lets him hide behind his headboard to listen in, and then just about forgets he’s there. Turns out the expert had sent a poisoned trap to Holmes, Holmes faked dying to get a confession out of the expert, and Watson was there to witness it. > > But, of course, while it occurred to Holmes that he could have let Watson into the ruse, he didn’t because he didn’t believe Watson could act well enough to fake out the expert. > > Hmph. _The Case of The Dying Detective_ to which you have just beaten me!🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/51 "2009-06-17T12:56:56Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > **Shodan** , I suggest you may need to re-read the passage in question. Watson challenges Holmes to infer what he can about the brother from his watch. Holmes does so with his usual superhuman accuracy (that is his gig, after all), and while he is dispassionate he is hardly cold-blooded; he’s immediately apologetic when he realizes what he has done. That’s the point - Holmes knows almost at once that he is talking about Watson’s brother. But he goes ahead with the characterization of Watson’s brother as a careless, untidy drunk. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/52 "2009-06-17T13:27:56Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > Also, in _The Devil’s Foot_, Holmes is extremely apologetic about his idiocy. > > I thought the jerkiest thing Holmes ever did was in a short story (can’t remember the name) where Mrs. Hudson called for Watson because Holmes appeared to be dying. Watson rushes over and tries to treat Holmes, but Holmes refuses to let him anywhere near, saying that Watson was completely incompetent. Then he demands that Watson fetch a certain expert on (I think) Amazonian poisons. > > Watson summons the expert, and begs Holmes to let him stay. Holmes lets him hide behind his headboard to listen in, and then just about forgets he’s there. Turns out the expert had sent a poisoned trap to Holmes, Holmes faked dying to get a confession out of the expert, and Watson was there to witness it. > > But, of course, while it occurred to Holmes that he could have let Watson into the ruse, he didn’t because he didn’t believe Watson could act well enough to fake out the expert. > > Hmph. Heh, you are quite right, I forgot about that one. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/53 "2009-06-17T13:45:33Z")
> [@ENugent](#): > > While I agree with all of this, it seems to me that Emma’s figuring this out on her own (and thus becoming a better person and a better friend) is sort of the point of the book. I don’t think it quite fits into the same category as Ermengarde, who is a crap friend because she’s dumb as a brick, and never gets better. Emma becoming a better person and learning to stop meddling in other people’s lives is basically the point of _Emma_, but she never becomes a particularly good friend to Harriet Smith. It’s not long after she realizes she has to stop trying to run Harriet’s life that Emma decides “their friendship must change into a calmer sort of goodwill”. This is really for the best for Harriet and apparently what she wants as well, but it seems that Emma doesn’t intend to have much to do with her socially anymore after Harriet’s marriage. They’re going to be more friendly aquaintances than real friends. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/54 "2009-06-17T14:54:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s the point - Holmes knows almost at once that he is talking about Watson’s brother. But he goes ahead with the characterization of Watson’s brother as a careless, untidy drunk. > > Regards, > Shodan I know. What I mean is that Holmes got momentarily forgot that he was not talking about something his friend could be dispassionate about. As I recall, what happened was that Holmes made a statement about how he could draw tons of information about a person from his personal possessions. Watson calls bullshit and challenges him to do so from the watch he had just inherited. Holmes, who does not know the story, examines the watch, spends a few minutes thinking about it, and in so doing briefly forgets who he is talking to; he comes up with his hypothesis. Watson is hurt, causing Holmes to realize what he’s just done, and immediately apologizes. That’s not hard to imagine happening for innocent reasons. One of my sisters recently did something similar; she brought up the fact that I know the area around a certain hospital very well because I spent a lot of time there when my son was dying, and was horrified when she realized what she’d just said. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/55 "2009-06-17T14:59:58Z")
I posit that Ned Stark would probably have been better off if King Robert Barathoen hadn’t been his best friend. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/56 "2009-06-17T15:30:22Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > You know, I have been told that I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I really am stunned that I never noticed House = Holmes until just now. [More parallels here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_house#Parallels_to_Sherlock_Holmes) ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/57 "2009-06-17T19:36:22Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Yeah. I see Wilson = Watson now. I am seeing lots of parrallels now. But how is it I never seen it before. I watch House whenever I can. They joke about it a lot - House’s apartment is 221B, Wilson jokes about an “Irene Adler” at one point, etc. There’s a lot of nods if you know what to look for. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Woodhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@Miss\_Woodhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Woodhouse)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/58 "2009-06-17T20:26:28Z")
[QUOTE=Lamia] Emma becoming a better person and learning to stop meddling in other people’s lives is basically the point of Emma, but she never becomes a particularly good friend to Harriet Smith. It’s not long after she realizes she has to stop trying to run Harriet’s life that Emma decides “their friendship must change into a calmer sort of goodwill”. This is really for the best for Harriet and apparently what she wants as well, but it seems that Emma doesn’t intend to have much to do with her socially anymore after Harriet’s marriage. They’re going to be more friendly acquaintances than real friends. [/QUOTE] Exactly. While Emma has learned not to meddle and grown as a human being, she’s still a product of her class and times. She resisted Harriet marrying the nice young farmer because that would separate them class wise. There is no other girl in the area Emma wants to be friends with, so she selfishly pushes Harriet the wrong direction. Harriet was always a friend of convenience. Once Emma sees Jane Fairfax as someone she’d like to be friends with and Mr. Knightly proposes, Emma doesn’t need Harriet anymore. She doesn’t feel the need to push society by continuing the friendship with Harriet. Emma is first and foremost a Lady. She would never do anything unconventional, even for the sake of friendship. Especially a friendship as unbalanced as the one she had with Harriet. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/59 "2009-06-17T20:38:52Z")
There’s also Brutus, though that may not count as literature. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848/60 "2009-06-17T20:40:13Z")
Ooo, what about Thomas Beckett & Henry? Do they count? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-best-friends-in-literature/499848.md?page=4)