# Worst Bond Movie **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 23, 2002, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-bond-movie/138351 "2002-11-23T16:38:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-bond-movie/138351/21 "2002-11-24T02:50:19Z")
> [@](#): > > We all seem to be forgetting, perhaps on purpose, **Never Say Never Again**. How any James Bond film starring Sean Connery could be that horrible is beyond me. Wasn’t that a re-make of _Thunderball_? _Never Say Never_ and _Casino Royale_ are the only Bond films I don’t have. I’ve read that the DVD of _NSN_ is missing a scene, so I can’t bring myself to buy it. I haven’t seen _Casino Royale_ offered on DVD, but then I haven’t looked recently. I read the book not too long ago. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-bond-movie/138351/22 "2002-11-24T03:03:39Z")
Dammit, we simply can’t count **Casino Royale**. It’s totally not official, or something. 🙂 I actually like the Moore ones overall, mostly because he was allowed to grow into the role, something that certainly hindered Lazenby. But by the end of his run, Moore was too old, too familiar, and too stodgy. Dalton, for me, was just too damn serious. Connery is the quintessential Bond, and Brosnan’s a good update. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-bond-movie/138351/23 "2002-11-24T03:16:25Z")
Okay, I’ll share my rankings: **Great Bond** From Russia With Love Goldfinger On Her Majesty’s Secret Service Licence To Kill **Good Bond** Dr. No The Living Daylights Die Another Day For Your Eyes Only Never Say Never Again The World Is Not Enough The Spy Who Loved Me Tomorrow Never Dies **Okay Bond** GoldenEye Thunderball Casino Royale Moonraker Octopussy **Not-so-good Bond** You Only Live Twice Diamonds Are Forever A View To A Kill Live And Let Die The Man With The Golden Gun ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-bond-movie/138351/24 "2002-11-24T03:24:07Z")
_Never Say Never Again_ was not produced by EON, and therefore is not considered a “real” Bond film. Same with the spoof _Casino Royale_. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-bond-movie/138351/25 "2002-11-24T03:29:38Z")
Man you guys really know your 007. I’ve seen everyone of them, some of them several times. Some are good and some stink to high heaven. But, you know what…maybe I’ve seen them too much, because I can barely separate them anymore. They are all pretty much the same movie w/ just a few new gadgets and a different pair of tits. There’s one on right this minute(Brosnan)…in my den, via public broadcast, no cable or dish for me…☹ ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-bond-movie/138351/26 "2002-11-24T03:44:53Z")
That’s Goldeneye, **t-keela**. Had 'er pegged when I turned it on. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-bond-movie/138351/27 "2002-11-24T03:59:55Z")
Yeah, I saw it a couple of weeks ago…think I’ll skip it tonight, and my old lady’s taping some damn Swartznegger Christmas flick…think I’ll go fix me margarita and have a cigar. I’ll have that margarita shaken, not stirred.😃 ---
**Author:** ![airdisc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19adc/32.png) [@airdisc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/airdisc)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-bond-movie/138351/28 "2002-11-24T04:46:55Z")
Rankings, based on the ones I’ve seen. Ones I haven’t seen have been deleted: **Great Bond** From Russia With Love Dr. No The Living Daylights Goldeneye **Good Bond** The World Is Not Enough Tomorrow Never Dies Thunderball You Only Live Twice **Okay Bond** The Man With The Golden Gun **Horrible, Horrible Bond** Moonraker Diamonds Are Forever Live And Let Die Of the worst of the worst, definetly Moonraker. 2 hours of pure, absolute pain. As for Bond actors here’s my list, with Lazenby excluded since I never say On Her Majesty’s Secret Service: Connery Brosnan Dalton Moore My 0.02. ---
**Author:** ![I\_am\_Sparticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@I\_am\_Sparticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_am_Sparticus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-bond-movie/138351/29 "2002-11-24T05:21:05Z")
Casino Royale was just beyond awful as both a Bond movie and a film. Yuck, yuck, ewww. A lousy spoof and a hopeless waste of money. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-bond-movie/138351/30 "2002-11-24T14:03:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > **Dammit, we simply can’t count Casino Royale. It’s totally not official, or something. 🙂** Well, it is sort of hard to see as a Bond film when David Niven, Peter Sellers and Woody Allen (among others) take on the James Bond (OK, Allen was “Jimmy” Bond which is sort of different, I guess) name during the film. I look forward to the day when technology permits us to watch David Niven in his prime as James Bond. I would bet he might well be the best. TV ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2002, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-bond-movie/138351/31 "2002-11-24T22:14:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > \*\*Wasn’t [_Never Say Never Again_] a re-make of _Thunderball_? \*\* Not technically. In 1959, Ian Fleming had six Bond novels to his credit and MGM was starting to make serious bids for movie rights (MGM’s first Bond movie was _Dr. No_ in 1962). Fleming no doubt still regretted the pittance he’d accepted for the film rights to his first Bond novel “Casino Royale” (made into a forgettable and inaccurate TV movie in 1954) and wanted some serious cash this time. To that end, he started working out an original film treatment with Kevin McClory and Jack Whittingdon, using a comical short story slapped together by Ernest Cuneo, who was visualizing a Bond movie consisting of little more than a few hundred celebrity cameos. Fleming, McClory and Whittingdon kept a few of Cuneo’s ideas, like underwater battles, and added concepts like SPECTRE, Blofeld, hijacking two A-bombs and hiding them in Nassau in order to blackmail the world, etc. This was all well and good, but the situation became immensely complicated when Fleming took those concepts and wrote up the novel “Thunderball” in 1961. Since MGM had an existing contract with Fleming to option all of his novels (except “Casino Royale”), MGM not unreasonably made a claim on “Thunderball.” McClory kicked up quite a fuss, since he’d anticipated negotiating with other studios, and the legal wrangling was finally settled in 1963. MGM could make the movie _Thunderball_ (with McClory co-producing) and the line “based on a screen treatment by Kevin McClory, Jack Whittingham, and Ian Fleming” had to be in the credits (as well as on the covers of all published copies of the novel). McClory kept the rights to Blofeld, etc, but agreed not to produce his own rival Bond movie for at least ten years after _Thunderball_’s 1965 release. Fleming died shortly after the settlement, in 1964, and this made the issue even more complicated. By this time, the films _Dr. No_, _From Russia With Love_ and _Goldfinger_ had been huge successes and the market for Bond movies was proven. Fleming’s death meant there would be no more original material to draw on, so even his work-product scribblings on “Thunderball” were hot items. In 1976, McCloy worked the Blofeld concepts into a new(ish) script (collaborating with Len Deighton and Sean Connery) that eventually (after more legal wrangling) was used for _Never Say Never Again_, 1983. During this time, MGM dropped the Blofeld character (literally, at the beginning of _For Your Eyes Only_, 1981, in a clear “screw you” gesture to McClory). Sony Pictures even got into the act in 1997 with an announcement that they would produce the rival Bond movies McClory had been hinting at for over 20 years. MGM called their lawyers immediately, and the wagons have been circling ever since. It’s fair to say that _Never Say Never Again_ is **not** a remake of _Thunderball_, but that both movies are drawn from a common source. McClory’s a loudmouth, but if any single person is to blame for this legal hassle, I would have to pick Fleming for not keeping his paperwork straight. It’s reasonably understandable, though. In 1959, none of the movies had yet been made and no-one could have predicted that the franchise would get MGM over $3 billion. If the copyright expires as per EU convention, seventy years after the artist’s death, James Bond becomes public domain in 2034. By then, McClory’s claims will finally be moot. I suspect in 2034, we’ll be having this discussion and debating who the best Bond actor was from the list: Sean Connery, George Lazenby, Roger Moore, Timothy Dalton, Pierce Brosnan, Russel Crowe or Daniel Radcliffe. We’ll have to debate whether or not Eric Sullivan’s performance in the non-MGM 2026 film _I Told You NEVER, Dammit!_ (based on a screen treatment by Kevin McClory, Jack Whittingham, and Ian Fleming) counts. Ref: [_Inside Thunderball_ by John Cork](http://www.ianfleming.org/mkkbb/magazine/inside_tb.shtml). _On Her Majesty’s Secret Service_ is marred by Lazenby’s unskilled performance (though I think he would have gotten better at the role, given a chance) though the movie is actually very well written and among the most faithful to Fleming’s novels. The subsequent _Diamonds are Forever_ was just awful (why are American characters always portrayed as idiots?) If I was going to group them: **Great Bond** Dr. No From Russia With Love Goldfinger Octopussy (highly underrated Cold War classic) **Good Bond** Thunderball On Her Majesty’s Secret Service (Great Bond, if Connery had been in it) For Your Eyes Only License to Kill Goldeneye Tomorrow Never Dies The World Is Not Enough **Indifferent Bond** You Only Live Twice The Living Daylights **Bad Bond** Diamonds Are Forever Live And Let Die The Man With The Golden Gun The Spy Who Loved Me/Moonraker (same basic plot) A View to a Kill [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-bond-movie/138351.md?page=1)