# Worst case of "manager speak" you've heard? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 13, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589 "2014-03-13T01:58:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/221 "2014-03-20T17:02:30Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > There are lots of us who already know what the word ‘incite’ means. Some of us are professional authors or translators who work with language everyday. Business leaders are subject to various pressures, and clear communication is vital to most enterprises. So is respect for leadership. Respect for the leadership is lost when leadership speaks or writes like morons. what if someone thought it was clever to capitalize the last letter in a sentence instead of the firsT. see how awesomely original that iS? And the common, colloquial meaning for incite has no similarity with the business use of incentivize. I’m convinced the main sticking point here is that you have no idea what any of these business terms actually mean so you’re just making random substitutions. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/222 "2014-03-20T20:04:46Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > There are lots of us who already know what the word ‘incite’ means. Some of us are professional authors or translators who work with language everyday. Business leaders are subject to various pressures, and clear communication is vital to most enterprises. So is respect for leadership. Respect for the leadership is lost when leadership speaks or writes like morons. what if someone thought it was clever to capitalize the last letter in a sentence instead of the firsT. see how awesomely original that iS? Yes, we know what “incite” means, and is why we know that “incentivize” means something different. If I incite you to hit me by being a jerk, I did not incentivize you to hit me. Likely no incentives were involved. I mean, I hate how Business English completely ignores the traditional practices of coining words, too. But “incentivize” follows the rules perfectly: adding -ize to a noun. Complaining about it only makes you seem like someone who just complains about everything. It only weakens any further arguments you make. And that sucks, because, while I am not anti-corporate, I am against the corporate mangling of language. But I don’t want full on prescriptivists on my side. There’s a difference between trying to keep something from entering the common language and pretending like it hasn’t already. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/223 "2014-03-20T20:14:57Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > Look, I agree with you that ask is a shitty, awkward word and not my first choice to represent this concept. At the same time, I’m mature enough to not go constantly tilting at windmills and just accept that it’s become the accepted nomenclature that facilitates smooth communication. I just don’t see how using “ask” as a noun facilitates smooth communication. It’s one thing to understand it when someone says it to you, but another to use it yourself. As long as both sides understand one another, it shouldn’t matter what words you use. Except that, by not using the word, you help reduce its popularity. Using it facilitates its use. If you can get by not using it, why wouldn’t you? I actually have a maxim where I say that, if you truly do not like something, you do what you can to stop it. People who say that they hate it that people are poor but refuse to give poor people money don’t actually hate it that people are poor. People who say they hate the word “ask” but use it when it is unnecessary don’t really hate the word. Real dislike is shown by one’s actions, not what one says. BTW, “asking” would be the noun form of ask. It already exists. That’s the sort of thing that makes Business English come off as stupid. Just a slight alteration of the jargon, and it wouldn’t have sounded stupid to outsiders. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/224 "2014-03-20T20:28:57Z")
Good grief, **Melchior** , stubbornly wrong again. _Incentive_ is a direct import from Latin, _incentivus_. _incentivus_ itself is a verbal adjective not derived from _incito_, from which we get _incite_, but from _incino_, a completely different goddamned word. As it is, “incentive” is only attested as of the middle of the 20th century. Surely it’s a vulgar neologism, too. Incentivize as a word is completely fine and has a completely different sense than motivate, incent, induce, persuade, etc. Like any word with -ize (from Greek, btw), it has the added sense of “make.” So incentivize means to offer a new (or different) incentive where one did not exist before. Yes, English has a colossal lexicon, in part because long ago we decided to let in words like “authorize,” which strikes our ears as perfectly normal. I personally only use words attested in Thomas Hobbes. Sure enough, people think that’s kind of weird! From the loyalty marketing world, far worse than incentivize is to use the word bonus as a verb, e.g., “all transactions over $25 at select merchants will get bonused on the back-end.” Up with that I cannot put. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/225 "2014-03-20T20:30:17Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > And the common, colloquial meaning for incite has no similarity with the business use of incentivize. I’m convinced the main sticking point here is that you have no idea what any of these business terms actually mean so you’re just making random substitutions. No, you don’t know the breadth of meaning of ‘incite’. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/226 "2014-03-20T20:34:34Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Good grief, **Melchior** , stubbornly wrong again. > > _Incentive_ is a direct import from Latin, _incentivus_. _incentivus_ itself is a verbal adjective not derived from _incito_, from which we get _incite_, but from _incino_, a completely different goddamned word. > > As it is, “incentive” is only attested as of the middle of the 20th century. Surely it’s a vulgar neologism, too. > > Incentivize as a word is completely fine and has a completely different sense than motivate, incent, induce, persuade, etc. Like any word with -ize (from Greek, btw), it has the added sense of “make.” So incentivize means to offer a new (or different) incentive where one did not exist before. Yes, English has a colossal lexicon, in part because long ago we decided to let in words like “authorize,” which strikes our ears as perfectly normal. > > I personally only use words attested in Thomas Hobbes. Sure enough, people think that’s kind of weird! > > From the loyalty marketing world, far worse than incentivize is to use the word bonus as a verb, e.g., “all transactions over $25 at select merchants will get bonused on the back-end.” Up with that I cannot put. No, ‘incentive’ is quite old: This entry is from the _Century Dictionary_ (1889): [http://triggs.djvu.org/century-dictionary.com/djvu2jpgframes.php?volno=04&page=364&query=incentive](http://triggs.djvu.org/century-dictionary.com/djvu2jpgframes.php?volno=04&page=364&query=incentive) and you can see how it can be used as an adjective, which was probably the original form of the word ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/227 "2014-03-20T20:35:52Z")
What we hate about manager-speak is its utter cynicism. Instead of a manager telling a subordinate what to do, he has an ask. It is as though by some linguistic trickery, employees won’t notice the degrading workplace hierarchy and are somehow more likely to respond favorably to “a take away” than “what you learned.” It’s why we all love to hate “let me check my availability” instead of “let me see if I have time for you.” “My availability” connotes that the person’s time is not under his control, and if he doesn’t want to see you, it’s his calendar’s fault and not the product of his choice. What makes it all so breathtakingly cynical is that managers expect that people believe it. Or worse, that by imitating it, they will internalize it, thereby making the whole Orwellian project work. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/228 "2014-03-20T20:36:14Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Good grief, **Melchior** , stubbornly wrong again. > > _Incentive_ is a direct import from Latin, _incentivus_. _incentivus_ itself is a verbal adjective not derived from _incito_, from which we get _incite_, but from _incino_, a completely different goddamned word. > > As it is, “incentive” is only attested as of the middle of the 20th century. Surely it’s a vulgar neologism, too. > > Incentivize as a word is completely fine and has a completely different sense than motivate, incent, induce, persuade, etc. Like any word with -ize (from Greek, btw), it has the added sense of “make.” So incentivize means to offer a new (or different) incentive where one did not exist before. Yes, English has a colossal lexicon, in part because long ago we decided to let in words like “authorize,” which strikes our ears as perfectly normal. > > I personally only use words attested in Thomas Hobbes. Sure enough, people think that’s kind of weird! > > From the loyalty marketing world, far worse than incentivize is to use the word bonus as a verb, e.g., “all transactions over $25 at select merchants will get bonused on the back-end.” Up with that I cannot put. No, ‘incentive’ is quite old: This entry is from the _Century Dictionary_ (1889): [http://triggs.djvu.org/century-dictionary.com/djvu2jpgframes.php?volno=04&page=364&query=incentive](http://triggs.djvu.org/century-dictionary.com/djvu2jpgframes.php?volno=04&page=364&query=incentive) and you can see how it can be used as an adjective, which was probably the original form of the word. You can see in the definition: ‘inciting, encouraging’. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/229 "2014-03-20T20:39:43Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > No, ‘incentive’ is quite old: > > This entry is from the _Century Dictionary_ (1889): > > [http://triggs.djvu.org/century-dictionary.com/djvu2jpgframes.php?volno=04&page=364&query=incentive](http://triggs.djvu.org/century-dictionary.com/djvu2jpgframes.php?volno=04&page=364&query=incentive) > > and you can see how it can be used as an adjective, which was probably the original form of the word Fair enough. I was looking for attestations in the US with a similar sense as the one used today. This dictionary does have the correct Latin, though. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/230 "2014-03-20T20:51:37Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Fair enough. I was looking for attestations in the US with a similar sense as the one used today. > > This dictionary does have the correct Latin, though. the \*Century \*is my reference dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/231 "2014-03-20T21:39:48Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Ooh. I want to be the guy who walks up and down the runway saying, “What’s the ask here?” and “Let’s reach out to key stakeholders!” Make fun all you want, but you’re going to want those stakeholders on your team when you’re trying to kill a vampire. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/232 "2014-03-20T21:47:48Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Make fun all you want, but you’re going to want those stakeholders on your team when you’re trying to kill a vampire. “Let’s reach out to key stakeholders,” manger-speak or manga? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/233 "2014-03-20T21:57:35Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > No, ‘incentive’ is quite old: > > This entry is from the _Century Dictionary_ (1889): > > [http://triggs.djvu.org/century-dictionary.com/djvu2jpgframes.php?volno=04&page=364&query=incentive](http://triggs.djvu.org/century-dictionary.com/djvu2jpgframes.php?volno=04&page=364&query=incentive) But look out, if you were in 1888 and used the word incentive, that would be time to fuck youre\* shit up because before that it just wasn’t a word! \*I did that on purpose, 'natch. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/234 "2014-03-20T22:00:25Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Fair enough. I was looking for attestations in the US with a similar sense as the one used today. > > This dictionary does have the correct Latin, though. ‘Incentive’ used in a business setting is a somewhat specialized use of the word that has a long literary history. Using the word as it has been used for centuries is quite appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/235 "2014-03-20T22:01:05Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > No, you don’t know the breadth of meaning of ‘incite’. But the broadness is the problem. Like your suggestion that we replace ask with request, ask has a specificity that request lacks and incentivize has a specificity that incite lacks. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/236 "2014-03-20T22:25:32Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > ‘Incentive’ used in a business setting is a somewhat specialized use of the word that has a long literary history. Using the word as it has been used for centuries is quite appropriate. Suffixation (like that?) with -ize is quite appropriate and has a respectable pedigree in the English language. Perhaps you’d like to get rid of summarize, prioritize, and, oops, specialize. I recognize that this forces me to accept “bulletize,” to turn long form text into a bulleted list. I do not like and will never use this word, but it has its place. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/237 "2014-03-20T22:47:23Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > I recognize that this forces me to accept “bulletize,” to turn long form text into a bulleted list. I do not like and will never use this word, but it has its place. You’d like to take it out behind the barn and bulletize it? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/238 "2014-03-20T23:04:50Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Suffixation (like that?) with -ize is quite appropriate and has a respectable pedigree in the English language. Perhaps you’d like to get rid of summarize, prioritize, and, oops, specialize. > > I recognize that this forces me to accept “bulletize,” to turn long form text into a bulleted list. I do not like and will never use this word, but it has its place. I would cheerfully get rid of ‘prioritize’. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/239 "2014-03-21T00:40:54Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > You’d like to take it out behind the barn and bulletize it? I’d make it squeal like a pig, first. > [@j666](#): > > I would cheerfully get rid of ‘prioritize’. Me too. I find that one especially degrading to speakers and hearers. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/240 "2014-03-21T01:35:34Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > But the broadness is the problem. Like your suggestion that we replace ask with request, ask has a specificity that request lacks and incentivize has a specificity that incite lacks. The words are not used in a vacuum. You can easily use ‘request’ to mean exactly what is meant by ‘ask’ as a noun. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589.md?page=13)