# Worst case of "manager speak" you've heard? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 13, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589 "2014-03-13T01:58:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/241 "2014-03-21T01:36:45Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > But look out, if you were in 1888 and used the word incentive, that would be time to fuck youre\* shit up because before that it just wasn’t a word! > > \*I did that on purpose, 'natch. No, the word is quite old. ---
**Author:** ![tenacious\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tenacious\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tenacious_j)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/242 "2014-03-21T01:45:30Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > It’s not _knowing_ the definition that’s the problem. It’s that the definition is overly broad and transmits very little information. Using it is lazy, dismissive, inexpressive, and insulting. > > Even if _you_ think the word is perfectly fine, you can see from this thread that a high proportion of people consider the word unbelievably stupid. If you use it, then, their opinion of you is instantly lowered and they are that much less likely to give you what you need. On the other hand, you can earn greater respect by using language that is both more expressive and standard English. Which serves your interests more? Yes, like 95% of the people I work with. It’s not the kind of place where people let that kind of douchey crap slide, and that’s why I like working there. The guy who asks for the ask gets a lot of funny looks and probably won’t stick around long, and that’s ok with us. > [@Maeglin](#): > > What we hate about manager-speak is its utter cynicism. Instead of a manager telling a subordinate what to do, he has an ask. It is as though by some linguistic trickery, employees won’t notice the degrading workplace hierarchy and are somehow more likely to respond favorably to “a take away” than “what you learned.” It’s why we all love to hate “let me check my availability” instead of “let me see if I have time for you.” “My availability” connotes that the person’s time is not under his control, and if he doesn’t want to see you, it’s his calendar’s fault and not the product of his choice. I think you nailed this one. That way, he doesn’t have to be accountable for not being available, he can feel superior to those who just don’t get it, and he can RIF resources with reduced guilt. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/243 "2014-03-21T02:10:55Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Maybe I’m wishy washy, but I sort of like “I can’t let this meeting run long, I have another commitment” - That seems much less rude (much less forceful and more words) than hard stop. > > But then, if I were trying to cement my image as a hard ass for whom efficiency in words was important - “hard stop” would be a lovely way to communicate > > I get it, I understand what it means, and I’ve very likely used the phrasing myself on MULTIPLE occasions (I did project management prior to my current sabbatical, semi-retirement, whatever the hell I’m doing, so very likely I said more than once “does anyone have a hard stop or can we let this run long?”) But I also get why it would rub people wrong. The thing is, nobody takes anything else seriously. I can say “Look, I really do need to end this meeting at 10:00 because I have to press the button that keeps the nuclear reactor from melting down immediately after,” and around 9:55, we’ll still be midway through the agenda, hopelessly lost in some tangent, and utterly failing to summon the focus to determine basic things like when we will meet again to tackle the half of the agenda we failed at, and in the meantime I’m shifting around nervously, glancing at my watch, and trying desperately to find a reasonable time to slip out. Hard stop, for some reason, works. If you let it be known that you have a hard stop, people for whatever reason, respect that. It’s like a magic word. Obnoxious as it is, you can’t take it away from me. ---
**Author:** ![tenacious\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tenacious\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tenacious_j)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/244 "2014-03-21T02:14:27Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Hard stop, for some reason, works. If you let it be known that you have a hard stop, people for whatever reason, respect that. It’s like a magic word. Obnoxious as it is, you can’t take it away from me. I might agree with you, I might use it because I know you’re right, but I’m never going to like it. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/245 "2014-03-21T02:30:04Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The thing is, nobody takes anything else seriously. I can say “Look, I really do need to end this meeting at 10:00 because I have to press the button that keeps the nuclear reactor from melting down immediately after,” and around 9:55, we’ll still be midway through the agenda, hopelessly lost in some tangent, and utterly failing to summon the focus to determine basic things like when we will meet again to tackle the half of the agenda we failed at, and in the meantime I’m shifting around nervously, glancing at my watch, and trying desperately to find a reasonable time to slip out. > > Hard stop, for some reason, works. If you let it be known that you have a hard stop, people for whatever reason, respect that. It’s like a magic word. Obnoxious as it is, you can’t take it away from me. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/246 "2014-03-21T02:49:17Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > No, the word is quite old. Substitute for the year that the word first appeared and the point stands. When the word incentive was first used, it would have had detractors who in retrospect seem silly. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/247 "2014-03-21T02:50:39Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > The words are not used in a vacuum. You can easily use ‘request’ to mean exactly what is meant by ‘ask’ as a noun. I’m curious, in your own words, define with maximum specificity, what you think an “ask” is. Because I think the bulk of the problem is that you simply have no idea what the word means. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/248 "2014-03-21T02:54:31Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > :smack: Color me quite confused. Your argument, as you’ve articulated numerous times, is that such jargon gets in the way of effective communication. **Even sven** states that the phrase is extremely effective because it communicates both meaning and urgency and people respond appropriately. Somehow that story is utterly dismissed by you and earns mocking. There are worse affronts to humanity than using jargon in a work setting. I just don’t understand how people who don’t see the benefit of these terms can dismiss the experiences of people who do. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/249 "2014-03-21T02:58:42Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > I’m curious, in your own words, define with maximum specificity, what you think an “ask” is. Because I think the bulk of the problem is that you simply have no idea what the word means. An explicit request for action, money, a decision, etc., instead of merely the statement that it would be nice if these things occurred. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/250 "2014-03-21T03:00:32Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Color me quite confused. Your argument, as you’ve articulated numerous times, is that such jargon gets in the way of effective communication. **Even sven** states that the phrase is extremely effective because it communicates both meaning and urgency and people respond appropriately. Somehow that story is utterly dismissed by you and earns mocking. There are worse affronts to humanity than using jargon in a work setting. I just don’t understand how people who don’t see the benefit of these terms can dismiss the experiences of people who do. There are many problems with the use of such words, among which is that such jargon gets in the way of effective communication. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/251 "2014-03-21T03:03:22Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Substitute for the year that the word first appeared and the point stands. When the word incentive was first used, it would have had detractors who in retrospect seem silly. and your evidence for that is? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/252 "2014-03-21T03:03:36Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > There are many problems with the use of such words, among which is that such jargon gets in the way of effective communication. Is this a Turing test? How does your reply even make sense? **even sven** said using “hard stop” make communication more effective. So, it is effective communication… Willful obtuseness also gets in the way of effective communication. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/253 "2014-03-21T03:34:05Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > and your evidence for that is? Do you believe language is fluid? That the meaning of words change over time while at the same time new words are coined? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/254 "2014-03-21T10:36:08Z")
I’d say “monkey munna moona” if it helped me get to my next meeting on time. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/255 "2014-03-21T13:46:13Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Do you believe language is fluid? That the meaning of words change over time while at the same time new words are coined? ‘Fluid’? Not exactly. I do not endorse idiocy. There is such a thing as learning your native language thoroughly and using its enormous vocabulary instead of creating ugly stupid words. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/256 "2014-03-21T13:59:39Z")
Ugly, stupid words that everyone uses creates a certain esprit de corps. Word choice isn’t only communication of information but it is a way of signaling who is in the group and who isn’t. This is basic sociolinguistics. It only hinders the doggedly obtuse and the people who overestimate the authority of style books. People tolerate “hard stop” in the office but would mock the crap out of you if you said it at the bar. Obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/257 "2014-03-21T14:15:05Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > ‘Fluid’? Not exactly. I do not endorse idiocy. There is such a thing as learning your native language thoroughly and using its enormous vocabulary instead of creating ugly stupid words. So is that a yes or a no? It seems like a no - you believe language is not fluid, exactly. Can you clarify? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/258 "2014-03-21T14:27:15Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > So is that a yes or a no? It seems like a no - you believe language is not fluid, exactly. Can you clarify? There is a difference between acknowledging that language does change and condoning that you do whatever the hell you want. It is and has been true for a long time in English-speaking countries, especially England, that speech and manners are a mark of class, and that the speech of upper classes is naturally enough preferred. A great deal of emphasis is placed reading the classics, and on speaking and writing ‘proper’ English. If you listen to an older English gentleman or lady speak, you can pick up the subtleties, the precise choice of words, the clarity with which the delicate of distinctions is expressed, the beautiful rhythms and sounds. Dullness and sloth are not justifications for novelties in language. This may be of interest. [http://sydneytrads.com/2013/02/16/emile-joseph-2/](http://sydneytrads.com/2013/02/16/emile-joseph-2/) In the US, class is distinguished more by possessions (the big car or house). ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/259 "2014-03-21T15:10:36Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > There is a difference between acknowledging that language does change and condoning that you do whatever the hell you want. It is and has been true for a long time in English-speaking countries, especially England, that speech and manners are a mark of class, and that the speech of upper classes is naturally enough preferred. A great deal of emphasis is placed reading the classics, and on speaking and writing ‘proper’ English. If you listen to an older English gentleman or lady speak, you can pick up the subtleties, the precise choice of words, the clarity with which the delicate of distinctions is expressed, the beautiful rhythms and sounds. > > Dullness and sloth are not justifications for novelties in language. This may be of interest. > > [http://sydneytrads.com/2013/02/16/emile-joseph-2/](http://sydneytrads.com/2013/02/16/emile-joseph-2/) > > In the US, class is distinguished more by possessions (the big car or house). So is that a no? Language is either fluid or it is not. Are you having trouble making a statement as to your belief on which state is occupies? What you wrote above is a great example of why people have to say “what is the ask?” To the simple question, “do you believe language is fluid?” \*\*you replied with 138 words without making a statement about what you actually believe. \*\* With all of the _precision in word choice_ you could muster, the question wasn’t answered at all. People in the business community, especially those in the corporate world, ostensibly the group of folks that use this type of language - don’t give a shit whether you are from England or can use the Queen’s English. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589/260 "2014-03-21T15:14:57Z")
Certainly, language changes, but it should change to make more sense, not less. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-case-of-manager-speak-youve-heard/683589.md?page=14)