# Worst mass shooting in ancient American history **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 2, 2017, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829 "2017-10-02T22:18:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/1 "2017-10-02T22:18:41Z")
Many of the news reports today (I’m thinking specifically of NPR, but there are others) refer to the Las Vegas tragedy as “the worst mass shooting in modern American history.” Why the qualification of _modern_? Was there a worse shooting some time before the modern era (whenever that is)? ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/2 "2017-10-02T22:19:54Z")
Probably it’s just idiom, and scans/reads better. But it’s also possible that they’re trying to stay out of muddles like “do Civil War battles count as mass shootings?” ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/3 "2017-10-02T22:21:01Z")
Colonists shooting at [del]Indians[/del] Native Americans, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/4 "2017-10-02T22:26:38Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/5 "2017-10-02T22:44:57Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Why the qualification of _modern_? Was there a worse shooting some time before the modern era (whenever that is)? [This article](https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/10/2/16401510/las-vegas-shooting-deadliest)discusses some other early examples. It depends in part how you define mass shootings, and whether some events qualify as battles instead. By putting in the qualifier “recent” you can avoid some of the controversy over what qualifies. > [@](#): > > In 1873, an all-black militia defended a local courthouse in Colfax, Louisiana — fearing, at the height of racial tensions after the Civil War, that white supremacists were about to topple the regional government, which was evenly split between white and black citizens at the time. Soon after, a mob of more than 150 white men — made up of Southern Democrats, former Confederate soldiers, members of the Ku Klux Klan, and the paramilitary White League — surrounded the courthouse and attacked. Three white men and as many as 150 black men died, according to [Smithsonian.com](http://Smithsonian.com). > > Another example: The 1917 East St. Louis Massacre — a white-led race riot — left at least 39 black people and nine white people dead, according to official estimates. But as [Smithsonian.com](http://Smithsonian.com) noted, it’s widely believed that more than 100 black people were killed during the three-day massacre. Then you’ve got mass killings of Native Americans, like [Wounded Knee.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre) Over 150 Indians died, and 25 soldiers; but was this a mass shooting or a battle of sorts? You’ve also got [Sand Creek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre) and the [Mountain Meadows Massacre,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre) the latter committed against white emigrants in Utah by a Mormon militia. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/6 "2017-10-02T22:51:07Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Many of the news reports today (I’m thinking specifically of NPR, but there are others) refer to the Las Vegas tragedy as “the worst mass shooting in modern American history.” > > Why the qualification of _modern_? Was there a worse shooting some time before the modern era (whenever that is)? OK, so I’m not the only one who was wondering about this. (Although the more recent reports seem to have dropped the “modern” part, from what I could tell.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/7 "2017-10-02T22:57:19Z")
Here’s [another article](http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-mass-shooting-20160614-snap-story.html) listing other massacres, generally against blacks or Native Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/8 "2017-10-02T23:39:51Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Many of the news reports today (I’m thinking specifically of NPR, but there are others) refer to the Las Vegas tragedy as “the worst mass shooting in modern American history.” > > Why the qualification of _modern_? Was there a worse shooting some time before the modern era (whenever that is)? Tulsa in 1921 might qualify [Tulsa race massacre - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot) although not all the deaths were due to shooting (and there wasn’t a single shooter). On a related note, the worst school massacre in US history occurred in 1927 [Bath School disaster - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster), when bombs were set off in an elementary school. ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/9 "2017-10-03T00:38:53Z")
Modern US History classes usually cover ~1870 to present. So Early American history ends just after the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/10 "2017-10-03T01:08:29Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > Modern US History classes usually cover ~1870 to present. > So Early American history ends just after the Civil War. Most of the other shootings linked to above took place after 1870, so that’s not the definition of “modern” they are evidently using. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/11 "2017-10-03T01:39:36Z")
In this sense, “modern” is a weasel word that means the writer cannot remember any other event with a larger death toll, doesn’t have the time to look it up, and their boss is screaming at them to post online already. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/12 "2017-10-03T10:34:22Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > Modern US History classes usually cover ~1870 to present. > So Early American history ends just after the Civil War. But USA’s legal system and its democracy dates to the war of Independence ? first past the post ?, winner takes all votes from a state ?, electoral colleges ? and something to do with only the 5th amendment still being interpreted literally word for word. “modern USA” surely began with its constitution. You can’t have it and not have it at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/13 "2017-10-03T11:08:11Z")
No, “USA” begins with the Constitution. “Modern USA” begins some time later. ---
**Author:** ![busterpickle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@busterpickle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/busterpickle)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/14 "2017-10-03T13:44:27Z")
Its [arbitrary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_history). However, it seems in the US, modern history is post Civil War, which is what I remember from high school: pre-civil war history and the socio-economic tensions that lead to the Civil War, and then Modern History which was after. They could easily solve the problem and be the “first” to say worst mass shooting of the 21st century. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/15 "2017-10-03T14:57:33Z")
> [@electronbee](#): > > They could easily solve the problem and be the “first” to say worst mass shooting of the 21st century. That would only mean within the past 17 years. They have to be more sensationalistic than that. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/16 "2017-10-03T15:39:06Z")
Have the names of the victims been published anywhere? I have a cousin and his wife who live in Las Vegas. He has not answered his phone; I have failed to find any information online (Google, [ask.com](http://ask.com)) about names of victims… ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/17 "2017-10-03T16:07:18Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Have the names of the victims been published anywhere? I have a cousin and his wife who live in Las Vegas. He has not answered his phone; I have failed to find any information online (Google, [ask.com](http://ask.com)) about names of victims… **Moderating** There is another thread on this incident in MPSIMS. It would be better to ask this question there. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/18 "2017-10-04T04:14:57Z")
The 1857 [Mountain Meadows Massacre,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre) of 120-140 members of a wagon train, is the sort of thing that you have to bear in mind from nonrecent history. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-mass-shooting-in-ancient-american-history/797829/19 "2017-10-04T04:54:46Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > [[Sand Creek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre) and the [Mountain Meadows Massacre,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre) the latter committed against white emigrants in Utah by a Mormon militia. Mountain meadows killed 120–140 by Mormon"Death Angels". Likely the worst. Wounded Knee _was_ a “battle or sorts” that turned into a debacle/massacre.