# Worst Military Leader elimination game (setup thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 8, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933 "2010-11-08T17:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/21 "2010-11-08T22:08:34Z")
Benedict Arnold. Rarely has an officer of his level turned traitor. Bill Halsey deserves a nomination at least just so we can enjoy the debate. General John A McClernand was a useless political hack that hurt the Union’s efforts. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/22 "2010-11-08T22:15:13Z")
I see **willthekittensurvive?** beat me to Lopez. Still thinking of others… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/23 "2010-11-08T22:20:13Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > ☹ oh I wanted too nominate Mr “don’t shoot the piano player” Karremans I don’t get the reference, I’m afraid. Explain? ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/24 "2010-11-08T22:26:50Z")
ANY pre-Grant Union commander qualifies. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/25 "2010-11-08T23:18:29Z")
Even though I nominated him in the “best military leader” thread, he seems worthy of a mention here: Douglas MacArthur – Dismissed from Korea by Truman Still thinking about my other nominations. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/26 "2010-11-08T23:34:42Z")
[Nicias](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicias) - commander of the Syracuse expedition ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/27 "2010-11-09T01:06:29Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > I don’t get the reference, I’m afraid. Explain? https://www.youtube.com/embed/AZ7woyumciQ?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque at 2.20 Karremans says “I always say I am the piano player…. Don’t shoot the piano player” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/28 "2010-11-09T06:57:23Z")
**Abdel Hakim Amer** - panicked, lost Sinai in 1967. **Pyrrhus of Epirus** - invented new way of losing. **Daniel Sickles** - almost lost Gettysburg single-handedly.\* **James II of England** - surrendered Britain without a fight. \*Or should I say single-leggedly? ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/29 "2010-11-09T11:41:06Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > General William Tecumseh Sherman May-He-Rot-in-Hell: Arsonist, War Criminal… > > …Ulysses S. Grant: Butcher… So victory in battle makes one “worst” ? 😕 'course, I could be predjudiced, they are from Ohio;) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/30 "2010-11-09T11:53:15Z")
Remember, the thread is not “worst person who happened to be a military leader”. Ghengis Khan killed a lot more civilians than Sherman did. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/31 "2010-11-09T13:18:50Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: Napoleon of the West? Ha! I realize it’s like asking gringos to write Hernán Cortés’ name with an s, but as General Santa Ana spelled the saint’s name with a single n, it might behoove this site to do it as he did it. “Santa Ana”, please. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/32 "2010-11-09T14:15:45Z")
Final pick: **Philip VI of France** , crushed own army at Crécy. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/33 "2010-11-09T14:49:28Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I realize it’s like asking gringos to write Hernán Cortés’ name with an s, but as General Santa Ana spelled the saint’s name with a single n, it might behoove this site to do it as he did it. “Santa Ana”, please. The first page of every Google result lists him as “Santa Anna,” including the Wikipedia entry, a PBS story, and U. of Texas and TAMU profiles. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/34 "2010-11-09T14:53:22Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I realize it’s like asking gringos to write Hernán Cortés’ name with an s, but as General Santa Ana spelled the saint’s name with a single n, it might behoove this site to do it as he did it. “Santa Ana”, please. A fair point - but on the other hand, this is an Anglophone board. Doesn’t seem unreasonable to employ spellings commonly used in the Anglophone world. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/35 "2010-11-09T15:00:09Z")
[Admiral Sir Cloudesley Shovell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudsley_Shovell), who wrecked his fleet on the Scilly Isles: “[one of the greatest maritime disasters in the history of the British Isles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scilly_naval_disaster_of_1707).” (Also nominated as military leader with silliest name, and scilliest location for his military disaster.) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/36 "2010-11-09T15:01:06Z")
List of nominees so far (in the order they were nominated - I’ll leave it to Elendil to alphabetize and cut things to 5 words). I think I got all the disqualifications and duplicates, but might have missed something: Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C. James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general Heinrich Himmler: Nazi botched every field command Christian de Castries: Lost at Dien Bien Phu [James Brudenell, 7th Earl of Cardigan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Brudenell,_7th_Earl_of_Cardigan): Charge of the Light Brigade. Arthur Percival, surrendered Singapore to Japan Publius Quinctilius Varus, army totally annihilated in Germany Lieutenant-Colonel Thom Karremans: Toasted Mladić, allowed Srebenica massacre. 2nd Lt. William Calley: Ordered, led My Lai Massacre. \*\*Ratko Mladić \*\*: Ordered Srebenica massacre, convicted scum. General William Tecumseh Sherman: Arsonist, War Criminal. George Armstrong Custer: Idiot. Ulysses S. Grant: Butcher Benjamin Franklin Butler: Beast. William Westmoreland: Brutal, unimaginative technocrat Paul D. Harkins: Ignorant and overoptimistic, allowed Vietnam to escalate Maximilian von Prittwitz: Peed his pants in Prussia (alliteration quadruple bonus!) Xerxes I of Persia: Epic blunders in Greece Antonio Lopez de Santa Ana: Napoleon of the West? Ha! **Ambrose E. Burnside** : defeat from jaws of victory Marcus Licinius Crassus Dives ( **Crassus** ): Army pincushioned by Parthians **Manuel Fernandez Silvestre** - “Run! The Bogeyman is coming!” **Charles le Temeraire** - Rash, rather than “Bold” **Charles Alexander of Lorraine** - A sustained career of incompetence **Frederik William Stopford** - Blunderer at Suvla Bay ( Gallipoli ) Emperor Romanus IV of Byzantium: Lost the [Battle of Manzikert](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manzikert) [George B McClellan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_B._McClellan) - Led Union unsuccessfully [/QUOTE] **William George Keith Elphinstone** - Lost an army in Afghanistan Douglas Haig: Lions led by donkeys Geoffrey Spicer-Simson :went mad in dark Afrika Francisco Solano López: almost unmade Paraguay Curtis LeMay: tried to preemptively use nukes **Oreste Baratieri** - Routed by Ethiopians at [Adowa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adwa). **Lord Chelmsford** - Zulu dawn at [Isandlwana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana) **Vice-Admiral Sir George Tryon** - Sunk his [flagship](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victoria_(1887)) on maneouvres. **General Maurice Gamelin** - Relied on the Maginot Line. **General William H. Winder** - Loses Upper Canada; Washington, D.C. burns. Benedict Arnold. Rarely has an officer of his level turned traitor. Bill Halsey deserves a nomination at least just so we can enjoy the debate. General John A McClernand was a useless political hack that hurt the Union’s efforts. Douglas MacArthur – Dismissed from Korea by Truman [Nicias](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicias) - commander of the Syracuse expedition **Abdel Hakim Amer** - panicked, lost Sinai in 1967. **Pyrrhus of Epirus** - invented new way of losing. **Daniel Sickles** - almost lost Gettysburg single-handedly.\* **James II of England** - surrendered Britain without a fight. **Philip VI of France** , crushed own army at Crécy. [Admiral Sir Cloudesley Shovell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudsley_Shovell), who wrecked his fleet on the Scilly Isles: “[one of the greatest maritime disasters in the history of the British Isles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scilly_naval_disaster_of_1707).” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/37 "2010-11-09T15:06:28Z")
Nitpick - sorry, I should have caught this earlier, but Mladic hasn’t been convicted, as he’s still a fugitive from justice. There’s no doubt the man did everything he’s accused of (and probably far worse besides), but “indicted scum” would be more accurate than “convicted scum.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/38 "2010-11-09T15:33:17Z")
That list is looking real good. A true rogue’s gallery. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/39 "2010-11-09T15:48:57Z")
I’d like to add a fifth nomination: \*\* George Villiers, 1st Duke of Buckingham \*\*- useless sycophant, incompetent military leader. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/40 "2010-11-09T15:55:07Z")
And I have my final nominee: [Zinovy Rozhestvensky](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinovy_Rozhestvensky) - Led Russian Navy to annihilation I’ve basically been trying to think of notable military disasters and then finding someone to blame for them :). I considered the guy who was in charge of the Spanish Armada, but thought I’d go for something that didn’t involve England or the US. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933.md?page=3)