# Worst Military Leader elimination game (setup thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 8, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933 "2010-11-08T17:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/41 "2010-11-09T16:11:15Z")
I’ve used up my noms - but I agree, we don’t want to get _too_ overbalanced with worthless civil war generals and brits. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/42 "2010-11-09T16:23:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’ve used up my noms - but I agree, we don’t want to get _too_ overbalanced with worthless civil war generals and brits. 😉 But there were so many! For sheer number produced, I’d have no problem at all if a Brit ended up “winning” this thread. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/43 "2010-11-09T16:29:32Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > But there were so many! For sheer number produced, I’d have no problem at all if a Brit ended up “winning” this thread. 😃 Certainly there were many. But the “accomplishments” of worthy French, Russian and Italian generals should not be overlooked! 😉 Part of the problem here is that non-English-speaking generals who were totally worthless are more likely to simply be less known and uncelebrated. We lack even a single Chinese general - surely there were some memorably bad ones? - and few from the mid-east. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/44 "2010-11-09T16:32:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Certainly there were many. But the “accomplishments” of worthy French, Russian and Italian generals should not be overlooked! 😉 > > Part of the problem here is that non-English-speaking generals who were totally worthless are more likely to simply be less known and uncelebrated. We lack even a single Chinese general - surely there were some memorably bad ones? - and few from the mid-east. I’m out of noms, but there must also have been some really bad Ottoman generals in the Balkans in the 19th century. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/45 "2010-11-09T16:54:08Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I’m out of noms, but there must also have been some really bad Ottoman generals in the Balkans in the 19th century. Incidentally, “noms” makes me think of LOLcats - which is appropriate, because I’m pretty sure that some of these generals could have been defeated in detail by a single angry kitten. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/46 "2010-11-09T16:58:11Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Incidentally, “noms” makes me think of LOLcats - which is appropriate, because I’m pretty sure that some of these generals could have been defeated in detail by a single angry kitten. I can has victory? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Enilno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58f4c7/32.png) [@Enilno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enilno)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/47 "2010-11-09T17:00:13Z")
I’d like to nominate [Zhao Kuo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Kuo), there’s a chinese idiom for bad generals thanks to him. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/48 "2010-11-09T17:03:58Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I can has victory? 😛 I’m in ur square, routing ur infantry. Ceiling cat sez that cavalry need artillery support when charging disciplined infantry or fortified positions, if it must be done at all. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/49 "2010-11-09T17:13:28Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > General William Tecumseh Sherman: Arsonist, War Criminal. > " I object. That individual’s full name is General William Tecumseh Sherman May-He-Rot-in-Hell. Even little old ladies who do not swear refer to him by his full name in my part of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/50 "2010-11-09T17:19:18Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I object. That individual’s full name is General William Tecumseh Sherman May-He-Rot-in-Hell. Even little old ladies who do not swear refer to him by his full name in my part of the world. Is that commonly abbreviated to MHRH in writing? As in, “General William Tecumseh Sherman, MHRH.” Would seem to be less cumbersome. And I know that, in a directly opposite vein, PBUH (Peace Be Upon Him) is often used by Muslims after writing the names of holy figures. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/51 "2010-11-09T18:42:02Z")
Thanks, **Tom Scud** , for the summary so far. Sure enough, I LOL’d for the lolcats. Heheh. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/52 "2010-11-09T18:49:02Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > **Ambrose E. Burnside** : defeat from jaws of victory To be fair the man knew he sucked, but the country said it needed him so he stepped up. I can’t juggle but if Obama picked me and said there was no one else I’d give it my best shot. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/53 "2010-11-09T20:18:57Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I’m out of noms, but there must also have been some really bad Ottoman generals in the Balkans in the 19th century. Not as many as you might think. I went into this elsewhere some time ago when discussing logistics, but by far the biggest issue with the Ottoman military was structural and at the bottom, rather than raw incompetence at the top. Discipline and cohesion were the main problems. After ~1700 Ottoman armies began to steadily ( and accelerating after the middle of the 18th century ) loose ground to European armies on the battlefield as strict parade-ground discipline, brutally enforced, took hold. For a variety of cultural/social and financial reasons the Ottomans failed to keep pace and consequently their field armies became less and less effective on the battlefield. Not completely _ineffective_ or incapable of winning at times - but fighting at a severe disadvantage from the start. This issue didn’t even begin to be addressed until the mid-19th century and it was by then hamstrung by the severe financial stresses of the state. Of course for closely related structural and cultural/social reasons, while lagging on the battlefield, Ottoman troops still remained superb when fighting from prepared defenses. Which accounts for the difficulty in taking the state down and the very numerous grinding campaigns waged against them. The Austrians and Russians found it exceptionally difficult to penetrate Ottoman defensive works under any conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/54 "2010-11-09T20:22:12Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Not as many as you might think. I went into this elsewhere some time ago when discussing logistics, but by far the biggest issue with the Ottoman military was structural and at the bottom, rather than raw incompetence at the top. Discipline and cohesion were the main problems. After ~1700 Ottoman armies began to steadily ( and accelerating after the middle of the 18th century ) loose ground to European armies on the battlefield as strict parade-ground discipline, brutally enforced, took hold. For a variety of cultural/social and financial reasons the Ottomans failed to keep pace and consequently their field armies became less and less effective on the battlefield. Not completely _ineffective_ or incapable of winning at times - but fighting at a severe disadvantage from the start. This issue didn’t even begin to be addressed until the mid-19th century and it was by then hamstrung by the severe financial stresses of the state. > > Of course for closely related structural and cultural/social reasons, while lagging on the battlefield, Ottoman troops still remained superb when fighting from prepared defenses. Which accounts for the difficulty in taking the state down and the very numerous grinding campaigns waged against them. The Austrians and Russians found it exceptionally difficult to penetrate Ottoman defensive works under any conditions. Could you link to your earlier discussion of Ottoman logistics? Sounds interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/55 "2010-11-09T20:42:38Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Could you link to your earlier discussion of Ottoman logistics? Sounds interesting. Took me a minute to find, but here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10351718&postcount=6](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10351718&postcount=6) By the way I note skimming that rambling mess, that I never cited my primary source for much of that post, which is Virginia Aksan’s excellent Ottoman Wars 1700-1870: _An Empire Besieged_ ( 2007, Pearson Education Limited ). Highly recommended. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/56 "2010-11-09T21:09:03Z")
An interesting list, should be a fun game. My last nomination: **Rodolfo Graziani** - Trounced in [North Africa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Compass). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/57 "2010-11-09T21:44:28Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Took me a minute to find, but here: > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10351718&postcount=6](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10351718&postcount=6) > > By the way I note skimming that rambling mess, that I never cited my primary source for much of that post, which is Virginia Aksan’s excellent Ottoman Wars 1700-1870: _An Empire Besieged_ ( 2007, Pearson Education Limited ). Highly recommended. Thanks, **Tamerlane**! As always, very informative. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/58 "2010-11-09T21:47:26Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > An interesting list, should be a fun game. > > My last nomination: > **Rodolfo Graziani** - Trounced in [North Africa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Compass). Good choice - I forgot about him (which is, I suppose, about what he deserves as a leader 😃 ). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/59 "2010-11-09T21:48:58Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > To be fair the man knew he sucked, but the country said it needed him so he stepped up. I can’t juggle but if Obama picked me and said there was no one else I’d give it my best shot. He was a modest incompetent, but his failures were too extreme to ignore. Plus, he had _the_ civil war facial hair. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/60 "2010-11-10T03:29:47Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I realize it’s like asking gringos to write Hernán Cortés’ name with an s, but as General Santa Ana spelled the saint’s name with a single n, it might behoove this site to do it as he did it. “Santa Ana”, please. Can you provide even a single original cite? Every single cite I can find, including contemporary paintings and illustrations of the man, spell his name Santa Anna. The title page of the man’s own memoirs spell it “Santa Anna”: [http://www.bicentenario.gob.mx/bdbic/index.php?option=com\_booklibrary&task=view&id=409&catid=28&Itemid=42](http://www.bicentenario.gob.mx/bdbic/index.php?option=com_booklibrary&task=view&id=409&catid=28&Itemid=42) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933.md?page=4)