# Worst Military Leader elimination game (setup thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 8, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933 "2010-11-08T17:52:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/81 "2010-11-15T15:12:41Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Did Napoleon III actually exercise battlefield command, or was he just a bungling, meddling national leader a la Hitler? Usual Wikipedia caveats apply, but he was apparently both present and giving orders at [the Battle of Sedan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sedan). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/82 "2010-11-15T15:15:39Z")
Good enough for me. Napoleon III is in. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/83 "2010-11-15T15:28:35Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Edit: The difficulty with fingering one man for the Gallipoli disaster deterred me from nominating anyone for it. 😛 Didn’t stop me though - I nominated Stopford for his little part in that drama back in post #11 ;). It is actually unfair to blame Stopford for Gallipoli as a whole - it was a composite failure and Stopford’s superiors bear a lot of blame for giving him his command in the first place ( he was more an administrative officer and was given the job largely because he had the requisite seniority to command divisional commander Sir Bryan Mahon, who like Stopford held the rank of Lieutenant General ). But Stopford did good and truly screw the pooch at the one point where the British might have had a shot of making something out of that campaign. His was the most egregious and obvious battlefield failure and the culmination of Britain’s series of missteps. Hamilton’s failures were less obvious and he did have a varied and solid_ish_ career before that. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/84 "2010-11-15T15:36:27Z")
Updated list of nominees with about two and a half hours to go: Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C. James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general Heinrich Himmler: Nazi botched every field command Christian de Castries: Lost at Dien Bien Phu [James Brudenell, 7th Earl of Cardigan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Brudenell,_7th_Earl_of_Cardigan): Charge of the Light Brigade. Arthur Percival, surrendered Singapore to Japan Publius Quinctilius Varus, army totally annihilated in Germany Lieutenant-Colonel Thom Karremans: Toasted Mladić, allowed Srebenica massacre. 2nd Lt. William Calley: Ordered, led My Lai Massacre. \*\*Ratko Mladić \*\*: Ordered Srebenica massacre, convicted scum. General William Tecumseh Sherman: Arsonist, War Criminal. George Armstrong Custer: Idiot. Ulysses S. Grant: Butcher Benjamin Franklin Butler: Beast. William Westmoreland: Brutal, unimaginative technocrat Paul D. Harkins: Ignorant and overoptimistic, allowed Vietnam to escalate Maximilian von Prittwitz: Peed his pants in Prussia (alliteration quadruple bonus!) Xerxes I of Persia: Epic blunders in Greece Antonio Lopez de Santa Ana: Napoleon of the West? Ha! **Ambrose E. Burnside** : defeat from jaws of victory Marcus Licinius Crassus Dives ( **Crassus** ): Army pincushioned by Parthians **Manuel Fernandez Silvestre** - “Run! The Bogeyman is coming!” **Charles le Temeraire** - Rash, rather than “Bold” **Charles Alexander of Lorraine** - A sustained career of incompetence **Frederik William Stopford** - Blunderer at Suvla Bay ( Gallipoli ) Emperor Romanus IV of Byzantium: Lost the [Battle of Manzikert](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manzikert) [George B McClellan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_B._McClellan) - Led Union unsuccessfully [/QUOTE] **William George Keith Elphinstone** - Lost an army in Afghanistan Douglas Haig: Lions led by donkeys Geoffrey Spicer-Simson :went mad in dark Afrika Francisco Solano LĂłpez: almost unmade Paraguay Curtis LeMay: tried to preemptively use nukes **Oreste Baratieri** - Routed by Ethiopians at [Adowa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adwa). **Lord Chelmsford** - Zulu dawn at [Isandlwana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana) **Vice-Admiral Sir George Tryon** - Sunk his [flagship](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victoria_(1887)) on maneouvres. **General Maurice Gamelin** - Relied on the Maginot Line. **General William H. Winder** - Loses Upper Canada; Washington, D.C. burns. Benedict Arnold. Rarely has an officer of his level turned traitor. Bill Halsey deserves a nomination at least just so we can enjoy the debate. General John A McClernand was a useless political hack that hurt the Union’s efforts. Douglas MacArthur – Dismissed from Korea by Truman [Nicias](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicias) - commander of the Syracuse expedition **Abdel Hakim Amer** - panicked, lost Sinai in 1967. **Pyrrhus of Epirus** - invented new way of losing. **Daniel Sickles** - almost lost Gettysburg single-handedly.\* **James II of England** - surrendered Britain without a fight. **Philip VI of France** , crushed own army at CrĂ©cy. [Admiral Sir Cloudesley Shovell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudsley_Shovell), who wrecked his fleet on the Scilly Isles: “[one of the greatest maritime disasters in the history of the British Isles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scilly_naval_disaster_of_1707).” \*\*George Villiers, 1st Duke of Buckingham \*\*- useless sycophant, incompetent military leader. [Zinovy Rozhestvensky](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinovy_Rozhestvensky) - Led Russian Navy to annihilation [Zhao Kuo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Kuo), there’s a chinese idiom for bad generals thanks to him. **Rodolfo Graziani** - Trounced in [North Africa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Compass). **[William Hull](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hull)**: surrendered peacefully to inferior forces. Carlo di Persano - Loser of Lissa Gaius Terentius Varro – Blamed for defeat at Cannae Tiberius Sempronius Longus – Lost to Carthage at Trebia Gaius Claudius Glaber: why fortify against slaves? **Napoleon III** - Misadventures to many to name, but primarily added for foolishly declaring war on Prussia, getting clobbered in a double envelopment at Sedan, then watching as Parisians lived on rats. **Hugh Judson Kilpatrick** – Nicknamed “Kill Cavalry” for reason **Admiral Ernest J. King** – Disastrously opposed convoy, Anglophobic **John Bell Hood** – Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West **Hermann Goering** – Prancing figurehead misused Luftwaffe **Luigi Cadorna** – Lost 12 consecutively, hated, cruel ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/85 "2010-11-15T15:40:01Z")
**Tom Scud** , this was my mistake - but Mladic hasn’t yet been convicted, as he’s far too great a coward to stand trial. Could you change his entry to “indicted scum”? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/86 "2010-11-15T15:48:01Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > **Tom Scud** , this was my mistake - but Mladic hasn’t yet been convicted, as he’s far too great a coward to stand trial. Could you change his entry to “indicted scum”? Hopefully Elendil will be sure to change this when he makes up the official list. I’ve also left the work of alphabetizing & editing everything to five words up to him. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/87 "2010-11-15T15:50:00Z")
Much obliged for what you’ve already done, **Tom Scud**! ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/88 "2010-11-15T15:58:00Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Didn’t stop me though - I nominated Stopford for his little part in that drama back in post #11 ;). Gah, I searched for Hamilton but stopped there
exposed on the beach
without taking the heights. Heh. In a situation vaguely similar to Stopford’s, I considered nominating [Lloyd Fredendall](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Fredendall) for the Kasserine Pass fiasco, even though his superiors should share some of that blame. Although Fredendall seems markedly less likeable, due to his egotistical extravagances and terrible inability to communicate clearly. Only the (IMHO) greater culpability of the five I did nominate forced him off my list. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/89 "2010-11-15T16:02:00Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Does this qualify, though? Per Wikipedia, this was just a shipwreck - albeit of a military vessel, but it doesn’t really reflect battlefield incompetence. What about Admiral Sir Cloudesley Shovell? He’s on the list, for much the same reason. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/90 "2010-11-15T16:33:38Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What about Admiral Sir Cloudesley Shovell? He’s on the list, for much the same reason. And while considering that, you might want to review Tryon’s sinking the Victoria. It was a collision of warships on training maneuvers
arguably that’s not “battlefield” _per se_, but at least it was a military exercise. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/91 "2010-11-15T17:23:46Z")
**Francisco Solano LĂłpez** - Innovations include starting three-front war. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/92 "2010-11-15T17:57:04Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I object. That individual’s full name is General William Tecumseh Sherman May-He-Rot-in-Hell. Even little old ladies who do not swear refer to him by his full name in my part of the world. I was taught that the man (if we can call him such) was named General William Tecumseh May-He-Rot-in-Hell Sherman. Just for the record. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/93 "2010-11-15T18:47:13Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > I was taught that the man (if we can call him such) was named General William Tecumseh May-He-Rot-in-Hell Sherman. > Just for the record. This probably works better, since the convention in Anglophone names is for the family name to come last, and for the family name to be used with titles and ranks. Thus, putting “May-He-Rot-In-Hell” at the end could create ambiguity, with the fellow being referred to as “General May-He-Rot-In-Hell”, which would be at odds with the naming convention employed in records of the period and earlier Civil War histories. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/94 "2010-11-15T21:25:13Z")
And so it begins! Thanks for all the nominations. Here’s the game thread: [Worst Military Leader (game thread) - The Game Room - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=585694) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/95 "2010-11-16T01:32:58Z")
King Gelimer: [Coward Heart](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tricamarum) Christian de Castries: [Dien Bien Phu Fail](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dien_Bien_Phu) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/96 "2010-11-16T01:34:21Z")
Shoot. Didn’t see the last post. â˜č ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/97 "2010-11-16T02:03:48Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Shoot. Didn’t see the last post. â˜č S’okay. De Castries at least was already nominated, so you can still vent your spleen on him :). ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/98 "2010-11-16T04:51:15Z")
In the navy
 Shinedu, Naval invasion of Japan. Failed. Alonso PĂ©rez de GuzmĂĄn y de ZĂșñiga-Sotomayor, 7th Duke of Medina Sidonia, Lost the Spanish Armada. Yamamoto Isoroku, Not a Monster of Midway. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/99 "2010-11-16T05:57:48Z")
Sorry. The nominations closed at noon Monday after being open for a week. The game thread is already underway. ---
**Author:** ![ramel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb8c5e/32.png) [@ramel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ramel)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933/100 "2010-11-16T11:37:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Sure, but it was a Pyrrhic victory. It was still a victory. The fact that he won at a high price doesn’t change that he won. There are plenty of military leaders who suffered high casualties and also didn’t win! Pyrus is miles ahead of them. Because of that, there’s no way you can seriously call him the worst military leader. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-elimination-game-setup-thread/559933.md?page=6)