# Worst Military Leader (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783 "2010-11-15T21:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/181 "2010-12-03T05:48:36Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > You might be interested to know that there’s a well-reviewed new bio of Marine Gen. Krulak just out: [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/10/books/10book.html?\_r=1&scp=1&sq=krulak&st=cse](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/10/books/10book.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=krulak&st=cse) Neat! > [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > That is pretty bad, but let us remember that there is someone on the list who pretty much wiped out the male population of Paraguay, and he was their general! > > Seriously. Uphill battle. Yeah, but…that was… Are you going to make me come out and say it? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/182 "2010-12-03T15:33:36Z")
I’d like to see an argument advanced that Xerxes I of Persia blundered a lot. I think he ran into one of the greatest fighting forces of all time (Sparta) and an admiral who survived a fair distance into our “Greatest Military Leader” competition, Themistocles. Defeat by absolutely first-rate opposition somewhat ameliorates losing despite the numerical and cash advantage Persia had. I’m going to make a push to get Dan Sickles, who positioned his force badly in one battle, and John McClernand, who was ordered to make what turned out to be a monetarily corrupt wild goose chase up the Red River and away from the main theaters of the war, off the list before Ben Butler, who screwed up an entire campaign at Bermuda Hundred and had several other notable defeats, all while holding the numerical advantage. Butler may not belong in the “bottom ten,” that’s a matter of opinion, but he surely made a worse hash of things over a longer period than the other two. **Geoffrey Spicer-Simson - 2 Daniel Sickles - 2 John McClernand - 1** It’s past time that I tried to cobble together a list of the “military vices” I consider to be criteria for the worst of the worst. **Proposed criteria for “Worst Military Leader”** in _rough_ order of most important to least important: [ul] [li]repeated failure - number of defeats (e.g., Cadorna)[/li][li]learning the wrong military lesson from failure _or_ success (e. g., Hood)[/li][li]losing despite advantages (especially numerical) (e.g., Xerxes)[/li][li]arrogance and failure to recognize own foibles (e.g., _not_ Burnsides)[/li][li]losing a battle of annihilation (e.g., Crassus, Varro)[/li][li]logistical blunders (e.g., Burnsides’ inability to cross at Fredericksburg, and Mud March)[/li][li]cowardice/personal flight (e.g., Ledlie)[/li][li]high casualties, esp. repeatedly, esp. for no gain (lots of them)[/li][/ul] Others may have different criteria or offer up something I’ve forgotten; everyone will differ on how to weigh the criteria into rank order, and how to apply them to the unfortunates under discussion, but it’s something to think about. I rank “Learning the wrong military lesson” especially high, because before the crucible of battle, a lot of theories are untested, and often variables such as new technologies, tactics, and opponents create understandable risk of mistakes. SO I’m inclined to be more forgiving of first-time mistakes. But with lives at stake, failure to analyze actual conflicts once they’ve happened and adapt to those lessons is a signal failing common to the truly bad leaders who have killed their own men and doomed their own causes. . ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/183 "2010-12-03T15:43:14Z")
That’s a great list of military anti-virtues, **Sailboat**. The only thing I’d add is rather subjective, and builds on all the others - that a truly formidable loser should posess a certain panache, or rather, anti-panache - to lose in a manner particularly memorable and humiliating. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/184 "2010-12-03T16:34:27Z")
Those are all good points, **Sailboat** and **Malthus**. Not a bad yardstick at all. Thanks! Half an hour to go. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/185 "2010-12-03T21:09:39Z")
The results of our 7th round of voting: **Geoffrey Spicer-Simson - 11 Benjamin F. Butler - 10** Christian de Castries, Ernest J. King, John A. McClernand, Gaius Terentius Varro - 3 each Daniel Sickles, William Westmoreland - 2 each Hermann Goering, Xerxes I of Persia - 1 each The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Oreste Baratieri: Routed by Ethiopians at Adowa Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general Duke of Buckingham: Useless sycophant, incompetent military leader Ambrose E. Burnside: Defeat from jaws of victory Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel William Calley: Ordered, led My Lai Massacre Christian de Castries: Dien Bien Phu loser Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” Crassus: Army pincushioned by Parthians Carlo di Persano: Loser of Lissa William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Maurice Gamelin: Relied on the Maginot Line Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C. Gaius Claudius Glaber: Why fortify against slaves? Hermann Goering: Prancing figurehead misused Luftwaffe Rodolfo Graziani: Trounced in North Africa Douglas Haig: Incompetent British WWI general Paul D. Harkins: Ignorant, overoptimistic in Vietnam Heinrich Himmler: Nazi botched every field command John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West William Hull: Surrendered peacefully to inferior forces Thom Karremans: Toasted Mladić, allowed Srebenica massacre Hugh Judson Kilpatrick: Nicknamed “Kill Cavalry” for reason Ernest J. King: Anglophobe disastrously opposed Atlantic convoys James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Tiberius Sempronius Longus: Lost to Carthage at Trebia Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay George B. McClellan: Timid, bungling, arrogant Union commander John A. McClernand: Useless political hack hurt Union Ratko Mladić: Ordered Srebenica massacre; since indicted Napoleon III: Clobbered, captured at Sedan Nicias: Commanded ill-fated Syracuse expedition Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Philip VI of France: Crushed own army at Crécy Maximilian von Prittwitz: Peed his pants in Prussia Romanus IV of Byzantium: Lost Battle of Manzikert Zinovy Rozhestvensky: Led Russian Navy to annihilation Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Daniel Sickles: Almost lost Gettysburg single-handedly Manuel Fernandez Silvestre: Lost badly in Spanish Morocco Frederick William Stopford: Blunderer at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli Gaius Terentius Varro: Blamed for defeat at Cannae Publius Quinctilius Varus: Army totally annihilated in Germany William Westmoreland: Brutal, unimaginative technocrat William H. Winder: Lost Upper Canada; Washington burned Xerxes I of Persia: Epic blunders in Greece Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Douglas MacArthur William Halsey George A. Custer Curtis LeMay Lord Chelmsford George Tryon Geoffrey Spicer-Simson Benjamin F. Butler Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Mon. Dec. 6. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/186 "2010-12-03T21:42:46Z")
Sticking with: Christian de Castries – 2 votes Xerxes I of Persia – 2 votes William Westmoreland – 1 vote ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/187 "2010-12-04T14:13:50Z")
Varro - 2 Votes. Same reasons as before. Rodolfo Graziani - 2 Votes. Again he was given a near impossible job, and he knew it George B. McClellan -1 Vote - We’re getting to the point in this game where we are not just weeding out the people who have no business on this list, but merely removing the minor ‘badness’ from the board. McClellan was timid, and that cost the Union. But he was not useless - it was his work that built the Union army. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/188 "2010-12-05T01:53:18Z")
Ernest J. King, made some mistakes but wasn’t nearly as big a loser as the others remaining - 2 John A. McClernand, ditto - 2 Xerxes I of Persia, ditto - 1 ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/189 "2010-12-05T02:39:14Z")
I’m only voting for 1 this time: Ernest J. King - 2 votes ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/190 "2010-12-05T17:16:31Z")
**Ernest J. King** - 2 **Christian de Castries** - 2 **John A. McClernand** - 1: Seems like Grant was able to restrain him from screwing anything up too badly. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/191 "2010-12-06T08:36:19Z")
\*Our traditional picture of Xerxes is a caricature, put together from hostile, and faintly contemptuous, Greek propaganda. We see him as a small, blubbering, effeminate Oriental, a cowardly despot ruled by his women and the eunuchs…cruel in victory, spineless in defeat. Persian sources ( no doubt equally prejudiced in the opposite direction ) reveal a very different man… Modern scholars, whether classical historians or Orientalists, disagree sharply over Xerxes’ character and achievements. Some deny him the military ability, let alone the statecraft, of his predecessors; others praise him as a remarkable soldier, administrator and reformer. This depends, by and large, on their relative assessment of Greek and Persian propaganda. Somewhere between these two extremes - between The Persians and Perseopolis - the truth must lie…Contrary to popular belief, his record includes a long list of striking military successes.\* From The Greco-Persian Wars by Peter Green ( 1996, University of California Press ). **Xerxes** - 2. Green’s Xerxes comes off as temperamental and vainglorious, but also intelligent and methodical. He should take some responsibility for the disaster at Salamis, but his actions there don’t really seem that of an utter incompetent - it appears he was just outmaneuvered in more than one sense. By Plataea and Mycale he was out of the direct picture. **Gaius Terrentius Varro** - 2. Sticking with him for previously stated reasons. **Ernest J. King** - 1. Controversial doesn’t equal crap. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/192 "2010-12-06T16:26:37Z")
Xerxes - 2 (The Greeks were simply the best soldiers of their time, as Alexander would demonstrate later) I would add to Sailboat & Malthus’s list some element of importance; defeats that bring down an empire are more important to me than blunders in a winning cause. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/193 "2010-12-06T17:47:04Z")
The results of our 8th round of voting: **Xerxes I of Persia - 7 Ernest J. King - 7** Christian de Castries, Gaius Terentius Varro - 4 each John A. McClernand - 3 Rodolfo Graziani - 2 George B. McClellan, William Westmoreland - 1 each The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Oreste Baratieri: Routed by Ethiopians at Adowa Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general Duke of Buckingham: Useless sycophant, incompetent military leader Ambrose E. Burnside: Defeat from jaws of victory Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel William Calley: Ordered, led My Lai Massacre Christian de Castries: Dien Bien Phu loser Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” Crassus: Army pincushioned by Parthians Carlo di Persano: Loser of Lissa William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Maurice Gamelin: Relied on the Maginot Line Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C. Gaius Claudius Glaber: Why fortify against slaves? Hermann Goering: Prancing figurehead misused Luftwaffe Rodolfo Graziani: Trounced in North Africa Douglas Haig: Incompetent British WWI general Paul D. Harkins: Ignorant, overoptimistic in Vietnam Heinrich Himmler: Nazi botched every field command John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West William Hull: Surrendered peacefully to inferior forces Thom Karremans: Toasted Mladić, allowed Srebenica massacre Hugh Judson Kilpatrick: Nicknamed “Kill Cavalry” for reason James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Tiberius Sempronius Longus: Lost to Carthage at Trebia Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay George B. McClellan: Timid, bungling, arrogant Union commander John A. McClernand: Useless political hack hurt Union Ratko Mladić: Ordered Srebenica massacre; since indicted Napoleon III: Clobbered, captured at Sedan Nicias: Commanded ill-fated Syracuse expedition Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Philip VI of France: Crushed own army at Crécy Maximilian von Prittwitz: Peed his pants in Prussia Romanus IV of Byzantium: Lost Battle of Manzikert Zinovy Rozhestvensky: Led Russian Navy to annihilation Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Daniel Sickles: Almost lost Gettysburg single-handedly Manuel Fernandez Silvestre: Lost badly in Spanish Morocco Frederick William Stopford: Blunderer at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli Gaius Terentius Varro: Blamed for defeat at Cannae Publius Quinctilius Varus: Army totally annihilated in Germany William Westmoreland: Brutal, unimaginative technocrat William H. Winder: Lost Upper Canada; Washington burned Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Douglas MacArthur William Halsey George A. Custer Curtis LeMay Lord Chelmsford George Tryon Geoffrey Spicer-Simson Benjamin F. Butler Xerxes I of Persia Ernest J. King Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Weds. Dec. 8. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/194 "2010-12-06T18:59:32Z")
Woo-Hoo! New Round OK, these first two really should be off: Gaius Terentius Varro - 2 Votes - We’ve covered this Rodolfo Graziani - 2 Votes - He had an impossible situation and knew it. Maximilian von Prittwitz -1 Vote - Start this guy up again - His reasoning was sound but it assumed a competent Russian Army. The Generals who replacement were lucky in that the Russians were anything but competent. He never had a chance to be proved right or wrong in normal circumstances. He’s hardly a paragon but he’s not the worst general by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/195 "2010-12-06T20:05:50Z")
Varro, I’m persuaded - 2 John A. McClernand, made some mistakes but wasn’t nearly as big a loser as the others remaining - 2 Daniel Sickles, ditto - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/196 "2010-12-06T22:39:28Z")
Sticking with: Christian de Castries – 2 votes William Westmoreland – 2 votes Adding: John A. McClernand – 1 vote ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/197 "2010-12-07T00:27:47Z")
**Gaius Terentius Varro** - 2 **Christian de Castries** - 2 **John McClernand** - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/198 "2010-12-08T16:10:16Z")
Ugh, can’t give this the time and attention I’d like to. **John McClernand - 2 Daniel Sickles - 2 William Calley - 1** McClernand led a pointless campaign that cost the government a lot of money, although not too high in casualties; Sickles made one (galring) mistake in one battle. Gettysburg was undeniably one of the turning points of the war, but Sickles’ mistake didn’t even lose the battle, and Sickles himself acted bravely when wounded, insisting on smoking a cigar while being carried to the rear so the men could see he was still breathing. He later went on to a political career and what one historian memorably described as a “well-publicized liaison with the deposed nymphomaniac Queen of Spain.” He periodically visited the grave where his leg was buried for the rest of his life. Sickles might have been a fun guy to meet, as long as he wasn’t sending you out to stand in an exposed peach orchard. Calley appears to have been the sort of all-too-familiar, garden-variety villain that wars regularly produce. I don’t doubt that wars, especially long ones and bitter civil conflicts, brutalize participants to the point that they take out their fear, frustration and military impotence on the helpless. Such senseless brutality is, frankly, _too_ common. The names stain our collective memory: No Gun Ri, Malmedy, Nanking, Lawrence Kansas, Bataan, endless medieval [chevauchees](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevauch%C3%A9e#1355_campaign_of_the_Black_Prince), Katyn, Lidice, Wounded Knee, Tiananmen Square, Srebrenica…and that’s just off the top of my head…a list of words that leave a hollow feeling in the pits of our stomachs. Calley’s only claim to being on _this_ list is the contribution his massacre of civilians made to his side’s losing the war. That was a significant contribution, IMHO, although not as significant as Westmoreland’s. Still, although a foreseeable consequence, it was only indirectly a military consequence. And Calley is pretty small potatoes in terms of rank and number of men he led astray. He’s an interesting choice to put on this list but I don’t think he should stay here long. Hell is waiting. . ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/199 "2010-12-08T16:16:54Z")
John McClernand - 2 Maximilian von Prittwitz - 2 (I’m inclined to forgive over-caution more easily than rashness) William Calley - 1 (too junior, and I’m ready to start voting off the war criminals now). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/200 "2010-12-08T16:24:00Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Calley appears to have been the sort of all-too-familiar, garden-variety villain that wars regularly produce. I don’t doubt that wars, especially long ones and bitter civil conflicts, brutalize participants to the point that they take out their fear, frustration and military impotence on the helpless. > > Such senseless brutality is, frankly, _too_ common. The names stain our collective memory: No Gun Ri, Malmedy, Nanking, Lawrence Kansas, Bataan, endless medieval [chevauchees](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevauch%C3%A9e#1355_campaign_of_the_Black_Prince), Katyn, Lidice, Wounded Knee, Tiananmen Square, Srebrenica…and that’s just off the top of my head…a list of words that leave a hollow feeling in the pits of our stomachs. > > Calley’s only claim to being on _this_ list is the contribution his massacre of civilians made to his side’s losing the war. That was a significant contribution, IMHO, although not as significant as Westmoreland’s. Still, although a foreseeable consequence, it was only indirectly a military consequence. And Calley is pretty small potatoes in terms of rank and number of men he led astray. He’s an interesting choice to put on this list but I don’t think he should stay here long. > > Hell is waiting. > > . I understand your position, but I do think that my man Calley can stand a bit more time on this list. I’ll grant that wars produce atrocities, but part of the “horribleness” of any candidate for the top spot on this list is the gap between expectations and actual performance. No one here really faults generals who were routed by overwhelming forces, for example. And I don’t think many here would have nominated Henry V for his massacre of the French prisoners at Agincourt - it was appalling even for the day, but less so than it would be for a modern Army. But Calley turned his troops loose on civilians in a context where it was _entirely_ clear that he knew what he was doing. There wasn’t even a bad argument for confusion here. It was pure, gratuitous cruelty perpetrated by members of a military that held itself to be far above such things. It is telling, I think, that the helicopter pilot who helped put a stop to the massacre and evaced survivors was given military honors, thirty years after the event. [http://www.usna.edu/Ethics/Publications/ThompsonPg1-28\_Final.pdf](http://www.usna.edu/Ethics/Publications/ThompsonPg1-28_Final.pdf) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=11)