# Worst Military Leader (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783 "2010-11-15T21:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/201 "2010-12-08T17:56:30Z")
Darn, I missed the cutoff time. (In the future, I will be looking to remove Prittwitz, Sickles, Ledlie, etc. All of them made mistakes and Ledie was a disaster, but don’t measure up on the badness scale. I feel I can at least ask that McClellan stay in it. He was an absolutely awful general and frankly deserves to be in the competition for worst. I can think of no other man who combined intelligence and energy with utter uselessness, selfish ambition, and borderline treason. He nearly destroyed the United States’s war effort solo, and passed over so many opportunities it’s disgusting. His “victories” would have been easy and complete in the hands of rank amateurs, yet he consistently turned them into blood and indecisive quasi-wins, at best. He so damaged and wrecked the army of the Potomac that it was useless for years afterward, never recovering until 1865! ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/202 "2010-12-08T18:26:36Z")
I nominated Prittwitz because I think he presents an interesting case study in military command. The Germans basically had three advantages against the Russians in East Prussia: 1. Their system of rails gave them the mobility to move their forces where needed. 2. The Russians were communicating freely by radio, unencrypted. 3. They knew about the animosity between Samsanov and Rennenkampf The German high command wasn’t asking for too much from Prittwitz. All he had to do was maintain a stalemate long enough to wrap things up in the west and shift forces eastward. But after losing at Gumbinnen, Prittwitz wanted to retreat all the way to the Vistula. Look at [this map](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/BattleOfTannenberg1.jpg), with Gumbinnen near the top right, and Prittwitz’s planned withdrawal highlighted. Hindenburg and Ludendorff, looking at the same maps as Prittwitz, ultimately made their stand [here](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/BattleOfTannenberg2.jpg), and not only stood up Rennenkampf’s force, but encircled and destroyed Samsanov’s force. Tannenberg may have been a brilliant example of operational warfare on the part of Hindenburg and Ludendorff, but I don’t think they did anything truly incredible. They utilized their advantages in mobility and intel, but their most important impact was simply deciding not to abandon territory and choosing to fight. The difference between what they accomplished, and what Prittwitz was all too willing to concede, speaks volumes to me about Prittwitz’s abilities as a commander. Just an utter failure of leadership on his part. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/203 "2010-12-08T18:42:14Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > The difference between what they accomplished, and what Prittwitz was all too willing to concede, speaks volumes to me about Prittwitz’s abilities as a commander. Just an utter failure of leadership on his part. I’m not arguing he sucked, but compared to say, Varus or McClellan, Prittwitz is a one-hit non-wonder. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/204 "2010-12-08T18:56:35Z")
The results of our 9th round of voting: **Gaius Terentius Varro - 6 John A. McClernand - 6** Christian de Castries - 4 Daniel Sickles - 3 Rodolfo Graziani, William Westmoreland - 2 each William Calley, Maximilian von Prittwitz - 1 each The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Oreste Baratieri: Routed by Ethiopians at Adowa Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general Duke of Buckingham: Useless sycophant, incompetent military leader Ambrose E. Burnside: Defeat from jaws of victory Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel William Calley: Ordered, led My Lai Massacre Christian de Castries: Dien Bien Phu loser Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” Crassus: Army pincushioned by Parthians Carlo di Persano: Loser of Lissa William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Maurice Gamelin: Relied on the Maginot Line Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C. Gaius Claudius Glaber: Why fortify against slaves? Hermann Goering: Prancing figurehead misused Luftwaffe Rodolfo Graziani: Trounced in North Africa Douglas Haig: Incompetent British WWI general Paul D. Harkins: Ignorant, overoptimistic in Vietnam Heinrich Himmler: Nazi botched every field command John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West William Hull: Surrendered peacefully to inferior forces Thom Karremans: Toasted Mladić, allowed Srebenica massacre Hugh Judson Kilpatrick: Nicknamed “Kill Cavalry” for reason James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Tiberius Sempronius Longus: Lost to Carthage at Trebia Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay George B. McClellan: Timid, bungling, arrogant Union commander Ratko Mladić: Ordered Srebenica massacre; since indicted Napoleon III: Clobbered, captured at Sedan Nicias: Commanded ill-fated Syracuse expedition Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Philip VI of France: Crushed own army at Crécy Maximilian von Prittwitz: Peed his pants in Prussia Romanus IV of Byzantium: Lost Battle of Manzikert Zinovy Rozhestvensky: Led Russian Navy to annihilation Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Daniel Sickles: Almost lost Gettysburg single-handedly Manuel Fernandez Silvestre: Lost badly in Spanish Morocco Frederick William Stopford: Blunderer at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli Publius Quinctilius Varus: Army totally annihilated in Germany William Westmoreland: Brutal, unimaginative technocrat William H. Winder: Lost Upper Canada; Washington burned Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Douglas MacArthur William Halsey George A. Custer Curtis LeMay Lord Chelmsford George Tryon Geoffrey Spicer-Simson Benjamin F. Butler Xerxes I of Persia Ernest J. King Gaius Terentius Varro John A. McClernand Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Fri. Dec. 10. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/205 "2010-12-08T19:03:11Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I’m not arguing he sucked, but compared to say, Varus or McClellan, Prittwitz is a one-hit non-wonder. Most generals only get one chance to prove their worth, and Prittwitz failed. Hindenburg and Ludendorff, with the same forces Prittwitz had, succeeded. It doesn’t get any more stark than that. And we’re not dealing with a minor sideshow to the main events of WWI. We’re talking about an entire strategic front. I feel like people in this game are way too enamored with the annihilation losses. Varus lost his legions, but Rome didn’t collapse; the empire’s frontier was merely checked at the Rhine. Really, I don’t think Varus’s loss was much more significant than what Prittwitz’s loss would have been had he conceded East Prussia, just because Varus’s loss was particularly gruesome. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/206 "2010-12-08T19:08:16Z")
Daniel Sickles - 2 William Calley - 2 Maximilian von Prittwitz - 1 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/207 "2010-12-08T19:21:24Z")
Braxton Bragg 2 He’s honestly just not bad enough. He was irritable, foolish, and did not inspire confidence, yet his concepts weren’t totally mistaken and he still didn’t create constant disasters. As a loser, he simply doesn’t measure up. True, he was unable to follow up on any success, but while a serious problem, he just doesn’t rate. Heinrich Himmler 1 Looking closely at Himmler, we face an odd problem: he was not a military man and was in a position where victory was realistically impossible. Did he fail? Yes? Did he make numerous mistakes? Yes. Did he every have a prayer of victory which his ineptness lost? No. Regardless of his crimes, he barely qualifies as a military leader (the S.S. being a parmilitary force and frequently under military command), and he himself being tossed to the dogs for political reasons. If someone, for example, handed me command of Saddam Hussein’s army in either of the Iraq wars, I sinceerely hope they’d at least not insult me for failing. Prittwitz 2 > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I feel like people in this game are way too enamored with the annihilation losses. Varus lost his legions, but Rome didn’t collapse; the empire’s frontier was merely checked at the Rhine. Really, I don’t think Varus’s loss was much more significant than what Prittwitz’s loss would have been had he conceded East Prussia, just because Varus’s loss was particularly gruesome. No, it’s about the Worst Military Leader, and Varus was an absolute boob who completely fluked his entire job, military and non-military ,and then led his troops into an idiotic and easily-avoidable defeat, and then managed to make it as bad as possible. Prittwitz may have flubbed when threatened by superior numbers and fell back, but he never created any kind of terrible defeat, and was not in fact defeated. That may be technical, but I think your big military loser ought to have actually been beaten in war. Is he the general I want on my side? No. But honestly, he simply doesn’t belong on the same page as McClellan and Santa Anna. Too much of your analysis comes down to psychoanalyzing him, not his actual success or failure. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/208 "2010-12-08T19:23:59Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Too much of your analysis comes down to psychoanalyzing him, not his actual success or failure. His actual failure was in retreating when he should have fought. That’s failing by default. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/209 "2010-12-08T20:56:41Z")
Sticking with: Christian de Castries – 2 votes William Westmoreland – 2 votes Adding: Daniel Sickles – 1 vote ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/210 "2010-12-08T21:51:42Z")
That sounds reasonable. Seconded: Christian de Castries - 2 William Westmoreland - 2 Daniel Sickles - 1 ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/211 "2010-12-09T00:50:56Z")
So we’re voting off Westmoreland before Harkins and Calley? That makes no sense. **Christian de Castries** - 2 **Daniel Sickles** - 2 **Carlo di Persano** - 1: Wikipedia says the Battle of Lissa was “mostly inconsequential on a grand scale” and, in terms of naval history, “occurred during a period of weapons development when armour was considerably stronger than the guns available to defeat it.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/212 "2010-12-10T05:01:49Z")
OK, voting time: Prittwitz: - 2 votes. I can understand MOIDALIZE’s defense of the man being on this list, but despite the advantages listed in post 202 there was the minor detail that the Russian Army really wasn’t supposed to be mobilzed at all at that point. German Intelligence and planning had totally failed to plan for the Russians being speedy at getting their act together. His reaction was poor, granted, but it makes him a far, far cry from being the worst. Rodolfo Graziani -2 Votes. C’mon, how many times to I gotta 'splain!? Sickles - 1 Vote. Yeah he screwed up in the battle, but ironically some argue it may have helped the Union win. Accidental consequences, sure, but were not looking for the best general here, just voting off the person who is the worst. ---
**Author:** ![kfraser34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@kfraser34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kfraser34)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/213 "2010-12-10T06:40:48Z")
2 for Hull - didn’t get much support from his superiors… got out witted by a highly skilled general 1 for Varus, he was more of a governor than a general and ended up in an no win situation 2 Crassus just because he supported Caesar… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/214 "2010-12-10T15:53:39Z")
For our Custer fans (and you know who you are), a little something for over your mantelpiece: [Custer's last flag: Banner carried at Little Bighorn sells for $2.2M - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/12/10/new.york.custer.flag/index.html?hpt=C2) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/215 "2010-12-10T16:10:58Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > If someone, for example, handed me command of Saddam Hussein’s army in either of the Iraq wars, I sinceerely hope they’d at least not insult me for failing. And if you fought your army sensibly - hurting the Coalition forces when you could, withdrawing when you couldn’t, maintaining your army as a fighting force for as long as possible - I wouldn’t dream of insulting you for failing. At least, assuming you’d done everything you could before the war began to build up your army as a competent fighting force. Himmler had command of real military power - men, tanks, artillery. The SS were monsters, but they were _competent_ monsters - if Himmler had handled them well, they could have “accomplished” a great deal before being crushed. Is there any indication that he did anything at all to delay Germany’s defeat? Besides, I would argue that spearheading the Final Solution imposed such a logistical drag upon the SS as a fighting force that, even from the most cold-bloodedly evil Nazi perspective imaginable, it was a serious blunder. And logistical blunders certainly should qualify one to stay on this list. I only hope that there’s a Hell, and that someone has taken the trouble to inform Himmler the Dope is mocking him still. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/216 "2010-12-10T19:01:56Z")
The results of our 10th round of voting: **Daniel Sickles - 7 Christian de Castries - 6** Maximilian von Prittwitz - 5 William Westmoreland - 4 Braxton Bragg, William Calley, Crassus, Rodolfo Graziani, William Hull - 2 each Carlo di Persano, Heinrich Himmler, Publius Quinctilius Varus - 1 each The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Oreste Baratieri: Routed by Ethiopians at Adowa Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general Duke of Buckingham: Useless sycophant, incompetent military leader Ambrose E. Burnside: Defeat from jaws of victory Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel William Calley: Ordered, led My Lai Massacre Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” Crassus: Army pincushioned by Parthians Carlo di Persano: Loser of Lissa William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Maurice Gamelin: Relied on the Maginot Line Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C. Gaius Claudius Glaber: Why fortify against slaves? Hermann Goering: Prancing figurehead misused Luftwaffe Rodolfo Graziani: Trounced in North Africa Douglas Haig: Incompetent British WWI general Paul D. Harkins: Ignorant, overoptimistic in Vietnam Heinrich Himmler: Nazi botched every field command John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West William Hull: Surrendered peacefully to inferior forces Thom Karremans: Toasted Mladić, allowed Srebenica massacre Hugh Judson Kilpatrick: Nicknamed “Kill Cavalry” for reason James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Tiberius Sempronius Longus: Lost to Carthage at Trebia Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay George B. McClellan: Timid, bungling, arrogant Union commander Ratko Mladić: Ordered Srebenica massacre; since indicted Napoleon III: Clobbered, captured at Sedan Nicias: Commanded ill-fated Syracuse expedition Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Philip VI of France: Crushed own army at Crécy Maximilian von Prittwitz: Peed his pants in Prussia Romanus IV of Byzantium: Lost Battle of Manzikert Zinovy Rozhestvensky: Led Russian Navy to annihilation Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Manuel Fernandez Silvestre: Lost badly in Spanish Morocco Frederick William Stopford: Blunderer at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli Publius Quinctilius Varus: Army totally annihilated in Germany William Westmoreland: Brutal, unimaginative technocrat William H. Winder: Lost Upper Canada; Washington burned Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Douglas MacArthur William Halsey George A. Custer Curtis LeMay Lord Chelmsford George Tryon Geoffrey Spicer-Simson Benjamin F. Butler Xerxes I of Persia Ernest J. King Gaius Terentius Varro John A. McClernand Daniel Sickles Christian de Castries Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Mon. Dec. 13. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/217 "2010-12-10T19:10:10Z")
Maximiliam von Prittwitz - 2 William Calley - 2 Braxton Bragg - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/218 "2010-12-10T20:12:47Z")
Sticking with: William Westmoreland – 2 Adding: Maximilian von Prittwitz – 2 Rodolfo Graziani – 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/219 "2010-12-10T20:54:40Z")
William Westmoreland - 2 Maximilian von Prittwitz - 2 William Calley - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2010, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/220 "2010-12-11T04:43:16Z")
Hmmm. I am starting to repeat myself a bit: Prittwitz: - 2 votes. Rodolfo Graziani -2 Votes. and my new one: Crassus -1 vote. Crassus lost to the Persians. Roman history is littered with quite a few of these losses to Persia. I think Emperor Julian also got killed in Persia. He could have done much worse by losing to Sparticus. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=12)