# Worst Military Leader (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783 "2010-11-15T21:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/221 "2010-12-13T17:40:38Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Himmler had command of real military power - men, tanks, artillery. The SS were monsters, but they were _competent_ monsters - if Himmler had handled them well, they could have “accomplished” a great deal before being crushed. Is there any indication that he did anything at all to delay Germany’s defeat? No, he couldn’t. BY the time he’d been handed command of anything, Germany was completely screwed. And it’s not as if his presence brought about disaster in any sense of the word. He launched some counter-attacks which were, in fact, briefly effective in holding off the Americans and the Russians. However, there was absolutely no chance of victory, and they simply couldn’t sustain an offensive at that point in time. And once he was out of either command, well, they obviously fell back but hardly collapsed. He was inept, but he was also a complete newb being handed a losing hand. He played it poorly, but no more poorly than one would expect. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/222 "2010-12-13T18:23:29Z")
The results of our 11th round of voting: **Maximilian von Prittwitz - 8** William Westmoreland - 4 William Calley, Rodolfo Graziani - 3 each Braxton Bragg, Crassus - 1 each The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Oreste Baratieri: Routed by Ethiopians at Adowa Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general Duke of Buckingham: Useless sycophant, incompetent military leader Ambrose E. Burnside: Defeat from jaws of victory Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel William Calley: Ordered, led My Lai Massacre Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” Crassus: Army pincushioned by Parthians Carlo di Persano: Loser of Lissa William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Maurice Gamelin: Relied on the Maginot Line Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C. Gaius Claudius Glaber: Why fortify against slaves? Hermann Goering: Prancing figurehead misused Luftwaffe Rodolfo Graziani: Trounced in North Africa Douglas Haig: Incompetent British WWI general Paul D. Harkins: Ignorant, overoptimistic in Vietnam Heinrich Himmler: Nazi botched every field command John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West William Hull: Surrendered peacefully to inferior forces Thom Karremans: Toasted Mladić, allowed Srebenica massacre Hugh Judson Kilpatrick: Nicknamed “Kill Cavalry” for reason James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Tiberius Sempronius Longus: Lost to Carthage at Trebia Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay George B. McClellan: Timid, bungling, arrogant Union commander Ratko Mladić: Ordered Srebenica massacre; since indicted Napoleon III: Clobbered, captured at Sedan Nicias: Commanded ill-fated Syracuse expedition Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Philip VI of France: Crushed own army at Crécy Romanus IV of Byzantium: Lost Battle of Manzikert Zinovy Rozhestvensky: Led Russian Navy to annihilation Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Manuel Fernandez Silvestre: Lost badly in Spanish Morocco Frederick William Stopford: Blunderer at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli Publius Quinctilius Varus: Army totally annihilated in Germany William Westmoreland: Brutal, unimaginative technocrat William H. Winder: Lost Upper Canada; Washington burned Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Douglas MacArthur William Halsey George A. Custer Curtis LeMay Lord Chelmsford George Tryon Geoffrey Spicer-Simson Benjamin F. Butler Xerxes I of Persia Ernest J. King Gaius Terentius Varro John A. McClernand Daniel Sickles Christian de Castries Maximilian von Prittwitz Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Weds. Dec. 15. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/223 "2010-12-13T18:32:44Z")
Sticking with: William Westmoreland – 2 votes (finally his time?) Rodolfo Graziani – 2 votes Adding: Crassus – 1 vote ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/224 "2010-12-13T19:00:36Z")
**Rudolpho Graziani:** 2 Votes **William Westmoreland:** -2 Votes. My first votes for this man. While he ran the war in an ineffective manner he didn’t lose any battles or have any disasters that were not PR issues. More ‘uninspired’ than ‘worst’. My new target: **William H. Winder:** 1 Vote - OK, this guy was dealt some 300-400 regulars and 1500 inept militia and told to stop a British invading force of veteran infantry some 2.5 times bigger than his force? Sorry, but you’ll should need to do much worse than losing that battle to get on this list. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/225 "2010-12-13T19:39:50Z")
Sorry I haven’t been paying as much attention to this thread as I should. It’s mostly a matter of me thinking I need to take the time to do some reading on a few of these characters and just not getting around to it. But any way re: Varus, allow me to argue both sides of the street for a second. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > No, it’s about the Worst Military Leader, and Varus was an absolute boob who completely fluked his entire job, military and non-military ,and then led his troops into an idiotic and easily-avoidable defeat, and then managed to make it as bad as possible. I think that is slightly harsh. As I said earlier Varus committed errors of judgement, both personal ( trusting Arminius, but he had good reason to do so ) and in terms of overconfidence. But I don’t think I’d call it an idiotic defeat per se. I think even a Julius Caesar ambushed in the manner Varus was would have been in a difficult situation. Archaelogical work on the battle site done since 1987 ( when it was discovered ) seem to indicate that it really was a superbly prepared and timed ambush on ground that would have been very difficult to defend ( narrow track, prepared bog and woods on one side, back to a hillside on the other ). The actual battle itself I think might stand as more of a testament to Arminius’ ability than the lack of such by Varus. Varus’ failure was more the in the events leading up to the battle. > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I feel like people in this game are way too enamored with the annihilation losses. Varus lost his legions, but Rome didn’t collapse; the empire’s frontier was merely checked at the Rhine. The above said, I also think this is a little dismissive. No Rome hardly collapsed, but it did retreat. Permanently. Before Teutoburger Wald it was in the process of assimilating the Rhineland much as it had Gaul. The battle took place at [Kalkriese](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalkriese) in western Saxony. Had Varus been able to leverage a victory ( or at least avoid an annihilating defeat ) that deep into Germany we may well have seen an eventual permanent Roman advance to the Elbe and the pacification of Germania as a whole. It is hard to say just what difference a Roman Germania would have made to history, but it could possibly have been profound, giving the later Western Roman empire that much more space to defend itself from collapse. I would argue that Varus’ defeat had a very real historical impact. > [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Crassus lost to the Persians. Roman history is littered with quite a few of these losses to Persia. I think Emperor Julian also got killed in Persia. He could have done much worse by losing to Sparticus. I think Crassus provides an excellent compare and contrast with Varus. I agree with **Mr. Miskatonic** on the significance or lack thereof of Carrhae. IMO it was a considerably less significant battle in historical terms than Teutoburg. While a humiliating and complete defeat, it did not permanently alter the political situation in the area ( it did cause political disruption in Rome, as one leg was cut out from under the Triumvirate - but that was an inherently unstable situation that would have dissolved eventually anyway ). Rome was likely never going to conquer the Persian heartland and if Crassus had won, even won big, it would have had minimal impact. Surena’s field army was actually rather small and hardly represented the full strength of the Parthian state. By contrast Arminius probably had as much of the rebellious Germanic “nation” in arms as existed - a heavy defeat might have _at that stage_ ( i.e. before the huge morale boost of Teutoburg ) broken the back of the Germanic resistance. On the other hand, I think Crassus made more egregious errors than Varus on the battlefield and just as many on the campaign leading up to it. The entire affair was suffused with incompetence, as he made seemingly every bad decision he could to speed his army along to a crushing defeat. Varus was probably doomed the second he was ambushed. Crassus by contrast had options and failed to exercise them. The fact that he was annihilated by an army maybe one quarter the size of his own makes for an even more devastating indictment of his performance. So you have an interesting comparison ( if you accept my half-assed analysis 😉 ). On the one hand a mediocre performance that led to a defeat of potentially substantial historical import ( Varus at Teutoburg Wald ). On the other a thoroughly incompetent performance that led to a defeat of only passing historical impact ( Crassus at Carrhae ). Both were battles of annihilation, lost against smaller armies ( that were actually probably of similar size ), in which minimal losses were inflicted on the enemy - Crassus losses were worse only in the sense that he likely had a larger army to lose. So which was worse and who ranks lower? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/226 "2010-12-13T19:48:04Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > So you have an interesting comparison ( if you accept my half-assed analysis 😉 ). On the one hand a mediocre performance that led to a defeat of potentially substantial historical import ( Varus at Teutoburg Wald ). On the other a thoroughly incompetent performance that led to a defeat of only passing historical impact ( Crassus at Carrhae ). Both were battles of annihilation, lost against smaller armies ( that were actually probably of similar size ), in which minimal losses were inflicted on the enemy - Crassus losses were worse only in the sense that he likely had a larger army to lose. So which was worse and who ranks lower? I think we have to weigh the degree of incompetence far more heavily than historical import. Otherwise, we might find our Worst Military Leaders list swiftly dominated by military leaders of smaller states. Larger states, after all, can shrug off a series of military defeats - smaller ones often cannot. On these criteria, I’d rank Crassus as the worse military leader. Varus screwed up more before battle was joined - but once battle began, Crassus was the one who made unambiguous and serious errors in tactical leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/227 "2010-12-13T21:08:21Z")
William Westmoreland - 2 Crassus - 2 William Calley - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/228 "2010-12-14T15:49:15Z")
William Calley - 2 Rodolfo Graziano - 2 Braxton Bragg - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/229 "2010-12-15T14:16:26Z")
Been slacking off here, I see Sickles and McClernand are now off the list, so I have to come up with new losers. I only know this Graziani guy from his failure to take Egypt. It’s enlightening, in a horrible way, to see that he was TWICE given the classic _dishonorific_ “Butcher of \.” The Libyans called him “the Butcher of Fezzan” for the tens of thousands of Arab civilians who died by bullets, hanging, or starvation in the concentration camps he ran in Libya in the 1920s. Later, being made Viceroy of conquered Ethiopia in 1937, he began a brutal campaign of repression that included massacring the monks in a monastery, and became known as “the Butcher of Ethiopia.” That’s some achievement. He avoided war crimes prosecution only on the technicality that the Allies decided not to try _any_ Italians. > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > I think we have to weigh the degree of incompetence far more heavily than historical import. I agree, for slightly different reasons. Historical impact is often – perhaps always – outside the scope of any individual’s direct control. Usually it’s not the general’s fault that X or Y exacerbated what would have otherwise have been a routine defeat. I think it’s something of a blind alley for us to weigh a general’s skill by whether, three hundred years later, his society is still influential. I fall back on my [list of criteria](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13209851&postcount=182) instead. > [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > But Calley turned his troops loose on civilians in a context where it was _entirely_ clear that he knew what he was doing. There wasn’t even a bad argument for confusion here. It was pure, gratuitous cruelty perpetrated by members of a military that held itself to be far above such things. Perhaps where we differ here is that I see _all_ bad arguments for military necessity, and _almost all_ bad arguments for confusion, error, or misjudgment, as rationalizations for pure, gratuitous cruelty. I think most massacres come from the same set of atavistic impulses and most militaries (since the Enlightenment, anyway) hold themselves to be above such things, but all to frequently do them anyway. I agree that My Lai was gratuitous and cruel self-indulgence that cost a national reputation and hurt the war effort – but I conclude that most/all other massacres are the same. These things always hurt the perpetrators’ causes. In WWII, German generals eventually realized (and wrote down) that the regular German massacres of Soviet prisoners had quickly made the Soviet soldier a much harder fighter, much less willing to surrender and much more committed to killing Germans. **Heinrich Himmler - 1** - Never had a chance; just a placeholder during Germany’s death throes **Rodolfo Graziani - 1** - Personally a monster, but militarily a realist in an impossible situation **William Calley - 1** - Another monster, but a much more minor player **James Ledlie - 1** - Classic weakling unable to perform, but minor player **Publius Quinctilius Varus - 1** - another “Custer error” guy ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/230 "2010-12-15T15:23:58Z")
**Rodolfo Graziani** - 2 **William Calley** - 2 **Carlo di Persano** - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/231 "2010-12-15T17:25:25Z")
The results of our 12th round of voting: **Rodolfo Graziani - 9** William Calley, William Westmoreland - 6 each Crassus - 3 Braxton Bragg, Carlo di Persano, Heinrich Himmler, James Ledlie, Varus, William H. Winder - 1 each Hmmm. Not a good game in which to be named William… The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Oreste Baratieri: Routed by Ethiopians at Adowa Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general Duke of Buckingham: Useless sycophant, incompetent military leader Ambrose E. Burnside: Defeat from jaws of victory Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel William Calley: Ordered, led My Lai Massacre Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” Crassus: Army pincushioned by Parthians Carlo di Persano: Loser of Lissa William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Maurice Gamelin: Relied on the Maginot Line Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C. Gaius Claudius Glaber: Why fortify against slaves? Hermann Goering: Prancing figurehead misused Luftwaffe Douglas Haig: Incompetent British WWI general Paul D. Harkins: Ignorant, overoptimistic in Vietnam Heinrich Himmler: Nazi botched every field command John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West William Hull: Surrendered peacefully to inferior forces Thom Karremans: Toasted Mladić, allowed Srebenica massacre Hugh Judson Kilpatrick: Nicknamed “Kill Cavalry” for reason James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Tiberius Sempronius Longus: Lost to Carthage at Trebia Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay George B. McClellan: Timid, bungling, arrogant Union commander Ratko Mladić: Ordered Srebenica massacre; since indicted Napoleon III: Clobbered, captured at Sedan Nicias: Commanded ill-fated Syracuse expedition Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Philip VI of France: Crushed own army at Crécy Romanus IV of Byzantium: Lost Battle of Manzikert Zinovy Rozhestvensky: Led Russian Navy to annihilation Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Manuel Fernandez Silvestre: Lost badly in Spanish Morocco Frederick William Stopford: Blunderer at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli Publius Quinctilius Varus: Army totally annihilated in Germany William Westmoreland: Brutal, unimaginative technocrat William H. Winder: Lost Upper Canada; Washington burned Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Douglas MacArthur William Halsey George A. Custer Curtis LeMay Lord Chelmsford George Tryon Geoffrey Spicer-Simson Benjamin F. Butler Xerxes I of Persia Ernest J. King Gaius Terentius Varro John A. McClernand Daniel Sickles Christian de Castries Maximilian von Prittwitz Rodolfo Graziani Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Fri. Dec. 17. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/232 "2010-12-15T17:31:33Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > …[T]his Graziani guy… avoided war crimes prosecution only on the technicality that the Allies decided not to try _any_ Italians… I’d never heard that this was a conscious decision by the Allies. What was the rationale? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/233 "2010-12-15T18:38:46Z")
I skimmed the thread but can’t seem to find out: why are there sometimes 1, sometimes 2 and sometimes 3 individuals eliminated? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/234 "2010-12-15T19:03:56Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I’d never heard that this was a conscious decision by the Allies. What was the rationale? Uh…I was going by Wikipedia, which in the [Graziani article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodolfo_Graziani) says > [@](#): > > He was never prosecuted for war crimes in connection with the massacres in Ethiopia under his viceregal authority, as the Allies had decided not to prosecute Italians for war crimes, unlike what happened to German and Japanese war criminals. But it’s not footnoted. [A BBC site](http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/war_crimes_trials_01.shtml) says this: > [@](#): > > By June 1945 it had been decided not to prosecute surviving Italian Fascist leaders, who were later tried by Italian courts. The Straight Dope itself says this in a [2004 post from the archives](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-292169.html) (bolding mine): [QUOTE=APB] No, the surrender was indeed unconditional. (Photographs of the Instrument of Surrender can be found here ([Online Exhibits | National Archives](http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/featured_documents/japanese_surrender_document/)), although it is more readable in the text printed here ([http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/war.term/093\_00.html](http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/war.term/093_00.html)) along with other related documents.) But it was not quite that simple. The surrender was an unconditional surrender by the Japanese government of their armed forces; the Japanese government itself remained in being, although with the crucial proviso that, ‘The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the supreme commander for the Allied Powers, who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate these terms of surrender’. **This was broadly similar to what had been agreed with the Italians in 1943** , as that also involved the government agreeing the surrender. [/QUOTE] …which suggests the possibility, at least, of a tacit agreement between Allies and Italy not to prosecute, as an incentive to capitulate. But the same site that poster used presents what are supposedly the [terms of capitulation](http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/war.term/093_01.html) and they seem to be pretty clear that war crimes suspects will be turned over to the UN although what might follow isn’t spelled out: > [@](#): > > 1. Benito Mussolini, his chief Fascist associates, and all persons suspected of having committed war crimes or analogous offences whose names appear on lists to be communicated by the United Nations and who now or in the future are on territory controlled by the Allied Military Command or by the Italian Government, will forthwith be apprehended and surrendered into the hands of the United Nations. Any instructions given by the United Nations to this purpose will be complied with. To sum up: answer unclear so far. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/235 "2010-12-15T19:19:18Z")
On Varus: I think the posters arguing against him being here are minimizing or not understanding the depth of his utter failure. If it was merely a “Custer Error”, I’d agree. But it was not. First, he created the problem by gross corruption and bad behavior. This might be excusable as irrelevant to his military ability except that it directly created the later problem. Why Augustus put an emarassment like Varus into that position I do not know. AFAIK nothing in his family or person made him particularly useful; it was a matter of perosnal friendship. He was warned about Hermann (Arminius) and left him completely uncontrolled, a mistake other Romans usually avoided. He took his troops into a thick area with no intelligence, no scouting, and no clear purpose or goal. He got savaged and should have realized he was going to have to change his plans, which would start by moving back to a stronger position. He completely failed in this, despite later battles showing that the Romans had no trouble crushing the Germans. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/236 "2010-12-15T22:32:28Z")
Sticking with: William Westmoreland – 2 Crassus – 2 Adding: William Calley – 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/237 "2010-12-16T01:33:44Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > I skimmed the thread but can’t seem to find out: why are there sometimes 1, sometimes 2 and sometimes 3 individuals eliminated? I’ve generally been eliminating those WMLs who are at least one or two persons’ combined votes away from the next-highest vote-getter. At least one WML is eliminated in each round, but I don’t want to throw out too many at once. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/238 "2010-12-16T03:14:48Z")
You mean we occasionally get a Bonus Loser? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/239 "2010-12-16T13:19:17Z")
OK, not much change here: William Westmorland: - 2 votes Crassus - 2 votes William H. Winder - 1 vote ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/240 "2010-12-16T18:42:47Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > You mean we occasionally get a Bonus Loser? 🙂 I don’t think you have yet, but I suppose it’s possible. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=13)