# Worst Military Leader (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783 "2010-11-15T21:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/301 "2011-01-07T15:03:09Z")
Judson Kilpatrick - 2 Zinovy Rozhestvensky - 2 Braxton Bragg - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/302 "2011-01-07T17:02:40Z")
**Hugh Judson Kilpatrick** - 2. Not an admirable commander, but not the worst. **Herman Goering** - 2. Human pustule of limited competence, but more an administrator. **George B. McClellan** - 1. Knew his logistics and could at least _build_ an army. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/303 "2011-01-07T19:15:29Z")
Oh great thread! Can I join? If so… Hermann Goering 1 George B. McClellan 2 Heinrich Himmler 2 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/304 "2011-01-07T19:20:17Z")
Sorry, **Tamerlane** and **BlinkingDuck** - too late. Please vote in the next round (and Himmler’s already gone, BTW). The results of our 19th round of voting: **Hermann Goering - 6 Zinovy Rozhestvensky - 5** Judson Kilpatrick - 4 William Hull, George B. McClellan - 3 Duke of Buckingham - 2 Braxton Bragg - 1 The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general Duke of Buckingham: Useless sycophant, incompetent military leader Ambrose E. Burnside: Defeat from jaws of victory Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Maurice Gamelin: Relied on the Maginot Line Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C. Gaius Claudius Glaber: Why fortify against slaves? Douglas Haig: Incompetent British WWI general John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West William Hull: Surrendered peacefully to inferior forces Thom Karremans: Toasted Mladić, allowed Srebenica massacre Hugh Judson Kilpatrick: Nicknamed “Kill Cavalry” for reason James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Tiberius Sempronius Longus: Lost to Carthage at Trebia Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay George B. McClellan: Timid, bungling, arrogant Union commander Napoleon III: Clobbered, captured at Sedan Nicias: Commanded ill-fated Syracuse expedition Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Philip VI of France: Crushed own army at Crécy Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Manuel Fernandez Silvestre: Lost badly in Spanish Morocco Frederick William Stopford: Blunderer at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Douglas MacArthur William Halsey George A. Custer Curtis LeMay Lord Chelmsford George Tryon Geoffrey Spicer-Simson Benjamin F. Butler Xerxes I of Persia Ernest J. King Gaius Terentius Varro John A. McClernand Daniel Sickles Christian de Castries Maximilian von Prittwitz Rodolfo Graziani William Westmoreland Crassus William Calley Carlo di Persano Heinrich Himmler William H. Winder Ratko Mladić Paul D. Harkins Oreste Baratieri Romanus IV of Byzantium Varus Hermann Goering Zinovy Rozhestvensky Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Mon. Jan. 10. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/305 "2011-01-07T19:36:34Z")
Well heck 🙂 Since George B. McClellan is still there he gets 2. He wasn’t THAT bad. I want to go with Santa Anna…but, my god, he had a long career of loserdom…so I think he needs to stay for now. So… Douglas Haig - didn’t he actually learn from his stupidity and somewhat redeem himself in 1918? If I’m not mistaken and this is the guy…then I don’t think he should be on the list: 2 Thom Karremans: 1. Terrible but not in same league as others on list. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/306 "2011-01-07T20:49:47Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Sorry, **Tamerlane** and **BlinkingDuck** - too late. Two minutes? I question the accuracy of that time stamp - I want to appeal to a higher court! Where’s Earendur of Andunie :p?! ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/307 "2011-01-07T22:54:07Z")
Sticking with: George B. McClellan – 2 Adding: William Hull – 2 Ambrose E. Burnside – 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/308 "2011-01-08T00:35:38Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Two minutes? I question the accuracy of that time stamp - I want to appeal to a higher court! Where’s Earendur of Andunie :p?! Overruled. You’re stuck with me, buddy. Now quit your griping and vote again. Judson Kilpatrick - 2 William Hull - 2 Maurice Gamelin - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/309 "2011-01-08T03:25:36Z")
**Duke of Buckingham** -2 Votes **William Hull** - 2 votes New target: **George B. McClellan** - 1 vote. A really poor commander but built a decent army. He didn’t fail on all levels. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/310 "2011-01-10T07:56:26Z")
**Hugh Judson Kilpatrick** - 2. **Gaius Claudius Glaber** - 2. **George B. McClellan** - 1. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/311 "2011-01-10T18:00:29Z")
The results of our 20th round of voting: **William Hull - 6 George B. McClellan - 6** Judson Kilpatrick - 4 Duke of Buckingham, Gaius Claudius Glaber, Douglas Haig - 2 each Ambrose Burnside, Maurice Gamelin, Thom Karremans - 1 each The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general Duke of Buckingham: Useless sycophant, incompetent military leader Ambrose E. Burnside: Defeat from jaws of victory Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Maurice Gamelin: Relied on the Maginot Line Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C. Gaius Claudius Glaber: Why fortify against slaves? Douglas Haig: Incompetent British WWI general John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West Thom Karremans: Toasted Mladić, allowed Srebenica massacre Hugh Judson Kilpatrick: Nicknamed “Kill Cavalry” for reason James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Tiberius Sempronius Longus: Lost to Carthage at Trebia Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay Napoleon III: Clobbered, captured at Sedan Nicias: Commanded ill-fated Syracuse expedition Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Philip VI of France: Crushed own army at Crécy Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Manuel Fernandez Silvestre: Lost badly in Spanish Morocco Frederick William Stopford: Blunderer at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Douglas MacArthur William Halsey George A. Custer Curtis LeMay Lord Chelmsford George Tryon Geoffrey Spicer-Simson Benjamin F. Butler Xerxes I of Persia Ernest J. King Gaius Terentius Varro John A. McClernand Daniel Sickles Christian de Castries Maximilian von Prittwitz Rodolfo Graziani William Westmoreland Crassus William Calley Carlo di Persano Heinrich Himmler William H. Winder Ratko Mladić Paul D. Harkins Oreste Baratieri Romanus IV of Byzantium Varus Hermann Goering Zinovy Rozhestvensky William Hull George B. McClellan Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Weds. Jan. 12. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/312 "2011-01-10T18:03:38Z")
Damn, meant to put in a vote here. Oh well, starting the next round: Horatio Gates 2 Hugh Judson Kilpatrick 2 Braxton Bragg 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/313 "2011-01-10T18:14:28Z")
Judson Kilpatrick, brash, scummy to subordinates but not totally disastrous - 2 Maurice Gamelin, just not up to the top spot in the French WW2 military - 2 Thom Karremans, appallingly limp in the face of ethnic cleansing but not in the same league as those who remain - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/314 "2011-01-10T18:25:17Z")
Robert McNamara, Secretary of Defense under LBJ. Possibly not a military leader, but he didn’t know that. His fear of telling LBJ the truth about what was happening in Vietnam led to many poor decisions. Not to mention his belief in the domino theory as a reason to be in VN, and of course, McNamara’s 100,000. I respectfully nominate McNamara for a position on this list. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/315 "2011-01-10T18:40:04Z")
Douglas Haig - 2 He did try/did redeem himself in 1918. I think that makes him ok for removal of all time bad. Thom Karremans - 2 there are much worse on the list. Horatio Gates - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/316 "2011-01-10T18:51:09Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Robert McNamara, Secretary of Defense under LBJ. Possibly not a military leader, but he didn’t know that. His fear of telling LBJ the truth about what was happening in Vietnam led to many poor decisions. Not to mention his belief in the domino theory as a reason to be in VN, and of course, McNamara’s 100,000. > I respectfully nominate McNamara for a position on this list. Thanks, but this game is about battlefield leaders only, and nominations closed Nov. 15. See here: [Worst Military Leader elimination game (setup thread) - The Game Room - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=584794) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/317 "2011-01-12T00:48:31Z")
OK, next round: **Duke of Buckingham** - 2 Votes I have t pick at least 2 new ones this round. Hmmm. **Thom Karremans** - 2 Votes. Another case of 'total, utter evil scumbag but not a witless military commander. **Hugh Judson Kilpatrick** 1 Vote. Again, another case of not a complete disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/318 "2011-01-12T16:49:18Z")
Whoops! Barely getting in under the wire this time. Sticking with: Ambrose Burnside – 2 Adding: Gaius Claudius Glaber – 2 Braxton Bragg – 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/319 "2011-01-12T18:25:53Z")
The results of our 21st round of voting: **Judson Kilpatrick - 5 Thom Karremans - 5** Horatio Gates - 3 Braxton Bragg, Duke of Buckingham, Ambrose Burnside, Maurice Gamelin, Gaius Claudius Glaber, Douglas Haig - 2 each Two “Ks” fall by the wayside, and the boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general Duke of Buckingham: Useless sycophant, incompetent military leader Ambrose E. Burnside: Defeat from jaws of victory Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Maurice Gamelin: Relied on the Maginot Line Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C. Gaius Claudius Glaber: Why fortify against slaves? Douglas Haig: Incompetent British WWI general John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Tiberius Sempronius Longus: Lost to Carthage at Trebia Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay Napoleon III: Clobbered, captured at Sedan Nicias: Commanded ill-fated Syracuse expedition Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Philip VI of France: Crushed own army at Crécy Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Manuel Fernandez Silvestre: Lost badly in Spanish Morocco Frederick William Stopford: Blunderer at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Douglas MacArthur William Halsey George A. Custer Curtis LeMay Lord Chelmsford George Tryon Geoffrey Spicer-Simson Benjamin F. Butler Xerxes I of Persia Ernest J. King Gaius Terentius Varro John A. McClernand Daniel Sickles Christian de Castries Maximilian von Prittwitz Rodolfo Graziani William Westmoreland Crassus William Calley Carlo di Persano Heinrich Himmler William H. Winder Ratko Mladić Paul D. Harkins Oreste Baratieri Romanus IV of Byzantium Varus Hermann Goering Zinovy Rozhestvensky William Hull George B. McClellan Judson Kilpatrick Thom Karremans Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Fri. Jan. 14. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/320 "2011-01-12T21:51:40Z")
New round, jiggity jig **Duke of Buckingham** - 2 Votes Again two new ones: **James Ledlie** - 2 Votes Disastrous on his day, but only had a chance to screw up one battle. Anyone got any idea if the crater fight would have worked with proper leadership? Seems unlikely that it would have broken the siege wide open. and **Nicias** - 1 vote From what I can gather it seems he made some mistakes, but was hampered by some betrayal, multi-leadership, and finally his troops failing in the face of Spartans. It also seems he really didn’t want to be on this expedition. Can anyone clear this one up more and tell us why he deserves to be on the list this late? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=17)