# Worst Military Leader (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783 "2010-11-15T21:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/361 "2011-01-21T21:16:38Z")
But Ledlie’s particular disgrace is not only his cowardice and drunkenness during battle, but that if he’d been sober and competent, the war could’ve ended much sooner, saving perhaps tens of thousands of lives. I think he should stick around. Tiberius Sempronius Longus - 2 Frederick William Stopford - 2 Abdel Hakim Amer - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/362 "2011-01-24T01:54:27Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Difference of opinion, I know, but to me Percival is the poster boy for losing despite numerical superiority. The Japanese also had little support, and he substantially outnumbered them, and had the advantage of conducting defense from prepared positions. I would find it entirely appropriate for hi to make the final few rounds. He _would_ have had prepared defensive positions had he bothered to have them built. Wasn’t he the guy who said fortifications were bad for morale? His only real disadvantage was a lack of tanks, he failed on almost every other level. He might have even won just by holding on had his nerve not cracked. The Japanese were practically out of supplies. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/363 "2011-01-24T01:56:47Z")
**Frederick William Stopford** 2 votes **Tiberius Sempronius Longus** 2 votes **James Ledlie** 1 vote ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/364 "2011-01-24T08:24:44Z")
Arghh! Here I am not paying attention and not playing solid defense. > [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > But I recall a few folks pointing out that a real winner is someone who thinks they were a super badass general and went out ready to kick someones butts but lost due to sheer ineptness or a stupid-beyond-reason underestimating of the enemy, or losing to some weaker enemy. Yes. Like Manuel Fernandez Silvestre :). A wasted rear guard argument, but I was hoping for top ten honors for that extravagantly mustachioed glory-hound. In the Anual campaign Silvestre had 25,700 men ( 20,600 Spaniards, 5,100 Moroccan auxiliaries ). His opponent Abd el-Krim had ~3,000 Riffian tribesmen. Silvestre lost ~13,000-19,000, most likely much closer to the high end of that. That’s _battlefield_ deaths for the most part, plus desertions of which only the natives would have had much of a chance to make it out of the combat zone ( and not a great one - the Riffian Berbers were insular and hostile and it is doubtful many Moroccan Regulares were recruited from their ranks unless they were already tribal outcasts ). Abd el-Krim’s losses are uncounted, but presumably were negligible. That mean each Riffian “rebel” killed an average of maybe six Spanish soldiers each. It’s pretty remarkable when a force outnumbered approximately 8:1 takes to the strategic as well as tactical offensive. Even more so when they _annihilate_ most of the opposing army. And Abd el-Krim’s remarkable leadership notwithstanding, Silvestre blustery incompetence must take considerable credit for that feat. While Abd el-Krim repeated his feat at Chaoen, were he killed ~17,000-20,000 exposed Spaniards in a well-timed offensive, hitting some 40,000 troops strung out in a vulnerable rear guard covering a larger retreat, he had more than twice the forces he had had at Anual ( ~7,000 ) and his _proportionate_ casualties inflicted were lower ( at a mere ~50% 😃 ). Hmmm…should have mentioned Abd el-Krim in the greatest generals thread. Nicely obscure, excellent general. Ah, well. So Silvestre was of the suck. I hate you all for voting him off :p. Anyway… **Tiberias Sempronius Longinus** - 2. Yeah, up against a genius. His time has come. **Napoleon III** - 2. How’d he last this long? Barely a general, arguably less of one than Himmler. Not terribly competent, no. But I won’t lay the Franco-Prussian disaster at his feet in terms of _his battlefield performance_. **Philip VI** - 1. Bad decision at Crecy, but as I argued earlier he was under intense social/political pressure to make it and he’d done better in the past. Edward III’s first French campaign floundered badly largely due to Philip’s sound approach to countering him. And in the end Crecy was _not_ decisive. That distinction went to Poitiers ten years later and that wasn’t on Philip’s watch. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/365 "2011-01-24T14:32:04Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Difference of opinion, I know, but to me Percival is the poster boy for losing despite numerical superiority. The Japanese also had little support, and he substantially outnumbered them, and had the advantage of conducting defense from prepared positions. I would find it entirely appropriate for hi to make the final few rounds. Here here. When I saw the title of title of the thread and before I entered it, I thought ‘Percival’. 😃 James Ledlie - 2 Tiberius Sempronius Longus - 2 Nap the III - 1 Time for this loser to enter the prunning…gahhh I don’t know! ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/366 "2011-01-24T14:47:03Z")
Napoleon III - 2 Tiberias Sempronius Longinus - 2 Philip VI - 1 I have to agree with some other poster’s arguments on their respective (de-)merits. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/367 "2011-01-24T14:59:01Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > William George Keith Elphinstone - 1 > I think with a historical perspective, if you’re a Westerner fighting in Afghanistan you already have two strikes against you. That only gets you so far, though. _Holding_ Afghanistan, building institutions, stabilizing your rule - yah, those things are incredibly difficult. That being said, the traditional way for foreign powers to get tossed out is to sink a lot of time and money into the country, get exhausted, and then withdraw in good order after deciding it just isn’t worth the hassle. Elphinstone lost an army. An entire army, along with the women and children accompanying them. That’s really something special. Hopkirk’s “The Great Game” makes an excellent case that Elphinstone made a bad situation far worse by ignoring warnings that his army’s position was untenable, refusing to reinforce properly, and repeatedly trusting rebel leaders who wanted nothing more than to make the Brits very, very dead. (Incidentally, “Flashman” also has a very good, albeit fictional, account of the whole mess.) Elphey Bey is top ten material, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/368 "2011-01-24T19:18:25Z")
The results from Round 26 of voting: **Tiberius Sempronius Longus AKA Longinus - 16 Frederick William Stopford - 11** James Ledlie, Napoleon III - 6 each Arthur Percival, Philip VI - 2 each Abdel Hakim Amer, William G.K. Elphinstone - 1 each The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay Napoleon III: Clobbered, captured at Sedan Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Philip VI of France: Crushed own army at Crécy Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Douglas MacArthur William Halsey George A. Custer Curtis LeMay Lord Chelmsford George Tryon Geoffrey Spicer-Simson Benjamin F. Butler Xerxes I of Persia Ernest J. King Gaius Terentius Varro John A. McClernand Daniel Sickles Christian de Castries Maximilian von Prittwitz Rodolfo Graziani William Westmoreland Crassus William Calley Carlo di Persano Heinrich Himmler William H. Winder Ratko Mladić Paul D. Harkins Oreste Baratieri Romanus IV of Byzantium Varus Hermann Goering Zinovy Rozhestvensky William Hull George B. McClellan Judson Kilpatrick Thom Karremans Ambrose Burnside Gaius Claudius Glaber Douglas Haig Braxton Bragg Duke of Buckingham Maurice Gamelin Horatio Gates Manuel Fernandez Silvestre Nicias Tiberius Sempronius Longus Frederick William Stopford Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Weds. Jan. 26. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/369 "2011-01-24T19:22:17Z")
James Ledlie 2 (an impressive amount of suckage for a minor command in one battle, but it’s time) Napoleon III 2 Philip VI 1 ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/370 "2011-01-24T19:45:06Z")
James Ledlie - 2 Nap the 3rd - 2 hmmmm. Did some more reading over the weekend. Think I need to go with: Philip the VI - 1 Edit - same as Tom Scud! OMG I am a follower! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/371 "2011-01-24T20:34:04Z")
I’m on board with the above, with a slight reversal… **Napoleon III** - 2. **Philip VI** - 2. Not that it matters very much in terms of generalship, but I’ll add that he personally was no Karremans. When the French infantry melted around him at the final English counter-charge, he stood his ground at nearly 50 years old and had two horses killed from under him and took an arrow in the face. **James Ledlie** - 1. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/372 "2011-01-24T20:37:47Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > **Philip VI** - 2. Not that it matters very much in terms of generalship, but I’ll add that he personally was no Karremans. When the French infantry melted around him at the final English counter-charge, he stood his ground at nearly 50 years old and had two horses killed from under him and took an arrow in the face. I like the use of Karremans as a synonym for cowardice. Can we keep that up in other threads as well? Sort of a consolation prize for the gutless Colonel, since he won’t be winning this contest. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/373 "2011-01-24T22:02:07Z")
Sticking with: Napoleon III – 2 Adding: Philip VI – 2 Returning (although apparently in vain) to: Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna – 1 At least he won at the Alamo… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/374 "2011-01-25T00:08:58Z")
Napoleon III - 2 Arthur Percival - 2 Abdel Hakim Amer - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/375 "2011-01-25T04:16:44Z")
Phillip VI - 2 votes. Yeah, one could say he could have done a lot better, but he had some rather telling circumstances. I also like to point out that despite Crecy, Poiters & Agincourt there are still no English Kings in France. In the end the English Kings just acted like the bandit armies that roamed the country in that age. James Ledlie - 2 Votes And a new one for me. Napoleon III - 1 Vote - He lost only one battle, and it did have devastating consquences. But losing the war can be put on others. The mitigating factor against me voting for him is that he styled himself as the successor to his great Uncle Nappy. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/376 "2011-01-25T04:18:13Z")
> [@Sternvogel](#): > > Sticking with: > > Returning (although apparently in vain) to: > > Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna – 1 > > At least he won at the Alamo… With an overwhelming force, against a rather poor fortification. Not very impressive. In addition, mucking around with the Alamo gave the Texans time to build up their strength. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/377 "2011-01-25T15:08:41Z")
> [@Sternvogel](#): > > Sticking with: > > Napoleon III – 2 > > Adding: > > Philip VI – 2 > > Returning (although apparently in vain) to: > > Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna – 1 > > At least he won at the Alamo… I’ll be joining you with Santa Anna soon…compare him to Luigi Cadorna and Santa Anna pales IMO…though Luigi didn’t have Santa Anna’s longevity, misplaced sense of greatness and cowardness…hmmmm…maybe I won’t be joining you 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/378 "2011-01-25T18:06:04Z")
Percival - 2 Napoleon III - 1 Philip VI - 2 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/379 "2011-01-26T18:20:23Z")
The results from Round 27 of voting: **Napoleon III - 13 Philip VI - 10** James Ledlie - 7 Arthur Percival - 4 Abdel Hakim Amer, Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna - 1 each The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated, as two crappy monarchs get the Order of the Boot. That leaves: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Douglas MacArthur William Halsey George A. Custer Curtis LeMay Lord Chelmsford George Tryon Geoffrey Spicer-Simson Benjamin F. Butler Xerxes I of Persia Ernest J. King Gaius Terentius Varro John A. McClernand Daniel Sickles Christian de Castries Maximilian von Prittwitz Rodolfo Graziani William Westmoreland Crassus William Calley Carlo di Persano Heinrich Himmler William H. Winder Ratko Mladić Paul D. Harkins Oreste Baratieri Romanus IV of Byzantium Varus Hermann Goering Zinovy Rozhestvensky William Hull George B. McClellan Judson Kilpatrick Thom Karremans Ambrose Burnside Gaius Claudius Glaber Douglas Haig Braxton Bragg Duke of Buckingham Maurice Gamelin Horatio Gates Manuel Fernandez Silvestre Nicias Tiberius Sempronius Longus Frederick William Stopford Napoleon III Philip VI Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Fri. Jan. 28. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/380 "2011-01-26T19:00:05Z")
James Ledlie 2 I honestly don’t think anyone else deserves to be voted out at this point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=20)