# Worst Military Leader (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783 "2010-11-15T21:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/401 "2011-01-31T16:25:21Z")
Hood 2 Lopez 2 Zhao Kuo 1 I felt the explanation of Hood to be utterly inadequate. Hood was a lot like Charles le Tremaire. Hood was a useless little tool, marginally acceptable as a subordinate calvary officer but a complete idiot with any amount of power. He was a backstabbing treacherous little snot, and even his much-vaunted courage was more rank stupidity. Remember that much of his original reputation came frm the Seven Days - which was a massive loss of Confederate life which would easily have spelled doom had the Union not been saddled with McClellan. Hod was right in the lead and shattered his command achieving, well it was a strategic success, but at a massive risk. Hood later spent his time stabbing commanders in the back. People criticize Johnson during his retreat to Atlanta, but he inflicted huge casualties on Sherman, avoided any set-piece battle where he could be drawn out, and held him at bay before Atlanta’s defenses, nearly pulling off a huge political victory in the Northern electorate. Johnson’s defense was briliant, ably dodging a superior force led by an extremely experienced stragetic genius. Hood intrigued behind Johnson’s back, sent outright lies to Richmond while arguing that Johnson should retreat to his face, and upon taking command lost Atlanta. Sherman delayed a bit before taking it, but Hood’s immediate, rash assaults effectively sealed the campaign. He couldn’t attack again and left Even worse, after retreating he somehow persuaded himself that his soldiers were just too scared, and moved north as Sherman moved south. Now, at this point he was attacking an enemy who outnumbered him, and who were commanded by the reoubtable George Thomas. First Thomas let Hood blled himself dry, and then when Hood insisted on advancing (throwing his men into the meatgrinder with no thought of tactics or plan of victory beyond, “Charge!”) counterattacked and utterly demolished Hood. That army never did anything for the rest of the war. It was so badly hurt that it simply dissolved for weeks. In short, he was a general whose major accomplishment was massacring his own men, who destroyed two major strategic campaigns, and ably knifed the career of one of the COnfederacy’s top commanders. One or two more Hoods and even McClellan would have won. (Personally, I think McClellan should have taken the “win” here. Ya’ll let him off way too easily. He combined poor military judgement with a terribly attitude, cowardice, and too much ambition) However. Hood was a giant loser, utterly beyond his depth. But I can’t compare him to Charles the Bald. Charles is Hood plus. Or maybe Hood minus. Onto the next - Lopez was rash and a bit crazy, but to be fair, he was under massive stress, facing down huge numbers of the enemy (Good lord, it’s like saying that Cuba was located on an island in the Rio Grande and still held out against the U.S. and Mexico for 5 years). Paraguay actually acquitted itself extremely well, and Lopez could hardly agree to a treaty which amounted to total disarmament. That would have rendered them completely defenceless - very similar to an action Elphinstone is rightly criticized for! And finally - Zhao Kuo wasn’t a very experienced. Supposedly his father complained about his lack of military knowledge, his willingness ignore losses and focus entirely on theory. My response? _Duh_ His father is the idiot here. Zhao Kun never commanded an army. He’d spent his whole life studying the theory. Had he a chance to practice military command BEFORE being handed a huge army and pitted against the best commanders the powerful Qin state could field, he might have learned what to do. Yes, he lost and badly, but he was a kitten sent out to face a Lion. He might have become a Tiger himself had he been allowed to grow. And kittens are known for teasing and playing with the far-more-serious elders… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/402 "2011-02-01T14:43:08Z")
The results from Round 29 of voting: **John Bell Hood - 10** Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, Zhao Kuo - 6 each Charles Alexander of Lorraine, Francisco Solano López - 4 each The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves the following: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Douglas MacArthur William Halsey George A. Custer Curtis LeMay Lord Chelmsford George Tryon Geoffrey Spicer-Simson Benjamin F. Butler Xerxes I of Persia Ernest J. King Gaius Terentius Varro John A. McClernand Daniel Sickles Christian de Castries Maximilian von Prittwitz Rodolfo Graziani William Westmoreland Crassus William Calley Carlo di Persano Heinrich Himmler William H. Winder Ratko Mladić Paul D. Harkins Oreste Baratieri Romanus IV of Byzantium Varus Hermann Goering Zinovy Rozhestvensky William Hull George B. McClellan Judson Kilpatrick Thom Karremans Ambrose Burnside Gaius Claudius Glaber Douglas Haig Braxton Bragg Duke of Buckingham Maurice Gamelin Horatio Gates Manuel Fernandez Silvestre Nicias Tiberius Sempronius Longus Frederick William Stopford Napoleon III Philip VI James Ledlie John Bell Hood Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Weds. Feb. 2. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/403 "2011-02-01T15:34:56Z")
Ahh, down to the hard core. Difficult decisions ahead. I guess I’ll go with Zhao Kuo - 2. Losing a single campagn to a famous general isn’t enough at this point Charles Alexander of Lorraine - 2. An incompetent, and reliably so, but not as memorable as some of the others. Finally, Francisco Solano López -1. Flamboyantly insane to be sure, but his insanity was more political (taking on, well, everyone) than strictly military. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/404 "2011-02-01T16:03:22Z")
Zhao Kuo - 2 Charles Alexander of Lorraine - 2 Abdel Hakim Amer - 1 ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/405 "2011-02-01T16:42:57Z")
I missed last round! However, I agree with the choice eliminated 🙂 Charles Alexander of Lorraine - 2 Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna - 2 Francisco Solano López - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/406 "2011-02-01T16:46:55Z")
Zhao Kuo - 2 Charles Alexander - 2 Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/407 "2011-02-01T16:57:15Z")
Sticking with: Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna – 2 Charles Alexander of Lorraine – 2 Adding: Zhao Kuo – 1 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/408 "2011-02-01T20:54:06Z")
Zhao Kuo - 2 Votes Francisco Solano López -2 votes Charles Alexander of Lorraine -1 vote ---
**Author:** ![Kyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@Kyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyguy)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/409 "2011-02-02T13:11:53Z")
How about some details and examples on the insults to Hood? You are doing nothing but repeating the lies and distortions of Wiley Sword and Thomas Connelly, both have been proven to be liars and charlatans, destroying the reputation of JB Hood just to feather their own nests. Hood was a great general, from cavalry in Texas in the 1850s up to and including the Tennessee Campaign, which ended disasterously because of inept and indifferent subordinates. Hood never backstabbed anyone, and if there was a butcher in the Civil War, it was Joe Johnston, who executed more men than even Braxton Bragg, and needlessly butchered 3,000 men at Bentonville even after admitting that the war was lost. Again, you throw out invectives at Hood but give no examples. Don’t simply parrot Wiley Sword, give us some credible primary source evidence of what you contend. ---
**Author:** ![Kyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3da27b/32.png) [@Kyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyguy)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/410 "2011-02-02T16:23:09Z")
I felt the explanation of Hood to be utterly inadequate. Hood was a lot like Charles le Tremaire. Hood was a useless little tool, marginally acceptable as a subordinate calvary officer but a complete idiot with any amount of power. He was a backstabbing treacherous little snot, and even his much-vaunted courage was more rank stupidity. **Where was Hood only marginally acceptable as a cavalry commander?** **WHo and where did he backstab anyone? If you are suggesting Joe Johnston, please give specific examples of what he was saying to Richmond authorities that was any different than what Joe Wheeler, William Hardee and AP Stewart were saying about Johnston’s failing tactics.** Remember that much of his original reputation came frm the Seven Days - which was a massive loss of Confederate life which would easily have spelled doom had the Union not been saddled with McClellan. Hod was right in the lead and shattered his command achieving, well it was a strategic success, but at a massive risk. **Hood was following the orders of Robert E Lee when he led the attack on Porter at Gaines’ Mill. What was he supposed to do, disobey Lee?** Hood later spent his time stabbing commanders in the back. **Hood did not. He simply was reporting the truth to Richmond and likely follwing instructions given to him** People criticize Johnson during his retreat to Atlanta, but he inflicted huge casualties on Sherman, **Johnston did NOT inflict heavy casualties on Sherman. Sherman was playing Johnston like a piano, marching steadily toward Atlanta and propping up Lincoln’s fading popularity as the November elections approached.** avoided any set-piece battle where he could be drawn out, and held him at bay before Atlanta’s defenses, **Held him at bay? Johnston retreated over 100 miles in 90 days, allowing Sherman to five miles from central Atlanta** nearly pulling off a huge political victory in the Northern electorate. Johnson’s defense was briliant, ably dodging a superior force led by an extremely experienced stragetic genius. **Johnston accomplished nothing but ensuring the loss of Atlanta and the loss of Confederate independence.** Hood intrigued behind Johnson’s back, **He did not** sent outright lies to Richmond **Everything he reported was 100% true** while arguing that Johnson should retreat to his face, **only when Johnston had taken an untenable position at Cassville** and upon taking command lost Atlanta. **Hood gallantly held Atlanta for 60 days while Johnston surrendered thousands of square miles of Georgia without raising a hand to stop it** Sherman delayed a bit before taking it, **Nonsense, Sherman got his nose bloodied and that’s why it took him 60 days to outmuscle Hood** but Hood’s immediate, rash assaults effectively sealed the campaign. \*\*More nonsense, what was Hood supposed to do, surrender the second most important city in the Confederacy when he had been ordered by Richmond to do everything possible to save it?\*\*He couldn’t attack again and left Even worse, after retreating he somehow persuaded himself that his soldiers were just too scared, and moved north as Sherman moved south. \*\*Still more nonsence. Hood never called any soldier a coward, he criticized Joe Johnston for turning an offensive army into a garrison force. To the contrary, Hood repeatedly complimented the bravery and courage of the soliders of the AOT.\*\*Now, at this point he was attacking an enemy who outnumbered him, and who were commanded by the reoubtable George Thomas. First Thomas let Hood blled himself dry, and then when Hood insisted on advancing (throwing his men into the meatgrinder with no thought of tactics or plan of victory beyond, “Charge!”) counterattacked and utterly demolished Hood. **Hood attacked Schofield at Franklin because Cheatham had allowed Schofield’s escape at Spring Hill. Hood must hit Schofield at Franklin because he was in the process of escaping again, this time to Nashville. After Franklin Hood invested Nashville and Beuaregard, Seddon, Bragg and Davis approved. It was a final grasp at victory to liberate Tennessee, but more importantly, to force a retrograde by Sherman** That army never did anything for the rest of the war. It was so badly hurt that it simply dissolved for weeks. \*\*This is a ridiculous statement. Check the order of battle at Nashville and at Bentonville and you’ll see many corps, divisions and brigades from Nashville founght at Bentonville. Johnston butchered 3000 men at Bentonville and wrote in his memoirs that he knew the war was lost before he attacked Sherman. Talk about a commander that slaughtered his own men for no reason…Johnston even admitted it! \*\* In short, he was a general whose major accomplishment was massacring his own men, who destroyed two major strategic campaigns, and ably knifed the career of one of the COnfederacy’s top commanders. One or two more Hoods and even McClellan would have won. (Personally, I think McClellan should have taken the “win” here. Ya’ll let him off way too easily. He combined poor military judgement with a terribly attitude, cowardice, and too much ambition) However. Hood was a giant loser, utterly beyond his depth. But I can’t compare him to Charles the Bald. Charles is Hood plus. Or maybe Hood minus. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/411 "2011-02-03T00:24:35Z")
Quote feature. Please. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/412 "2011-02-03T14:12:57Z")
Sorry for the delay in tallying. The results from Round 30 of voting: **Charles Alexander of Lorraine - 11** Zhao Kuo - 9 Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna - 5 Francisco Solano López - 4 Abdel Hakim Amer - 1 The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves the following: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Douglas MacArthur William Halsey George A. Custer Curtis LeMay Lord Chelmsford George Tryon Geoffrey Spicer-Simson Benjamin F. Butler Xerxes I of Persia Ernest J. King Gaius Terentius Varro John A. McClernand Daniel Sickles Christian de Castries Maximilian von Prittwitz Rodolfo Graziani William Westmoreland Crassus William Calley Carlo di Persano Heinrich Himmler William H. Winder Ratko Mladić Paul D. Harkins Oreste Baratieri Romanus IV of Byzantium Varus Hermann Goering Zinovy Rozhestvensky William Hull George B. McClellan Judson Kilpatrick Thom Karremans Ambrose Burnside Gaius Claudius Glaber Douglas Haig Braxton Bragg Duke of Buckingham Maurice Gamelin Horatio Gates Manuel Fernandez Silvestre Nicias Tiberius Sempronius Longus Frederick William Stopford Napoleon III Philip VI James Ledlie John Bell Hood Charles Alexander of Lorraine Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Fri. Feb. 4. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/413 "2011-02-03T14:59:48Z")
Will we hear from a passionate defender of Zhao Kuo once he’s voted out? ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/414 "2011-02-03T15:02:55Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Will we hear from a passionate defender of Zhao Kuo once he’s voted out? I doubt that. He may have only lost one battle…but BOY did he lose it! ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/415 "2011-02-03T15:04:01Z")
Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna - 2 Francisco Solano López - 2 Zhao Kuo - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/416 "2011-02-03T15:07:48Z")
Francisco Solano López - 2 Zhao Kuo - 2 Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna -1 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/417 "2011-02-03T15:19:57Z")
Zhao Kuo - 2 Santa Anna - 2 Luigi Cadorna - 1 (just like a baseball player with lots of home runs in the 90s isn’t as impressive as one with similar stats from the 60s, a terrible general in WWI just doesn’t stand out as much). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/418 "2011-02-03T15:49:25Z")
Luigi Cadorna - 2 Zhao Kuo - 2 Santa Anna - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/419 "2011-02-03T18:48:29Z")
Zhao Kuo - 2 Votes Abdel Hakim Amer - 2 votes Charles le Temeraire -1 vote ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/420 "2011-02-03T22:10:55Z")
Sticking with: Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna – 2 Zhao Kuo – 2 Adding: Arthur Percival – 1 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=22)