# Worst Military Leader (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783 "2010-11-15T21:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/421 "2011-02-03T22:30:23Z")
I gotta admit, Elphy Bey is my sentimental favourite to win this thing, purely because of the first _Flashman_ novel. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/422 "2011-02-04T19:51:27Z")
The results from Round 31 of voting: **Zhao Kuo - 11** Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna - 8 Francisco Solano López - 4 Luigi Cadorna - 3 Abdel Hakim Amer - 2 Charles le Temeraire, Arthur Percival - 1 each The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves the following: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Douglas MacArthur William Halsey George A. Custer Curtis LeMay Lord Chelmsford George Tryon Geoffrey Spicer-Simson Benjamin F. Butler Xerxes I of Persia Ernest J. King Gaius Terentius Varro John A. McClernand Daniel Sickles Christian de Castries Maximilian von Prittwitz Rodolfo Graziani William Westmoreland Crassus William Calley Carlo di Persano Heinrich Himmler William H. Winder Ratko Mladić Paul D. Harkins Oreste Baratieri Romanus IV of Byzantium Varus Hermann Goering Zinovy Rozhestvensky William Hull George B. McClellan Judson Kilpatrick Thom Karremans Ambrose Burnside Gaius Claudius Glaber Douglas Haig Braxton Bragg Duke of Buckingham Maurice Gamelin Horatio Gates Manuel Fernandez Silvestre Nicias Tiberius Sempronius Longus Frederick William Stopford Napoleon III Philip VI James Ledlie John Bell Hood Charles Alexander of Lorraine Zhao Kuo Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Mon. Feb. 7. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/423 "2011-02-04T20:02:44Z")
I’ll toss in two votes for Amer. Everyone else on the list appears to have been in the habit of making consistently bad decisions, or sustaining a single bad decision over an extended period of time. Amer made a single disastrously bad call, and it bit him in the rear pretty much before he could do anything to correct it. Amer performed badly whilst panicked - everyone else here performed badly whilst calm, collected, and entirely in their right minds. Amer was a bad general, of course - who isn’t, on this list? But he doesn’t deserve to win, and I think his time has come. Besides, I’m feeling generous towards Egypt this week. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/424 "2011-02-04T21:07:56Z")
Agreed Mr. E - though it was more than just one bad decision
he was responsible for the whole thing lock stock and barrel. However, I can see him being removed soon. Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna - 2 Francisco Solano López - 2 Abdel Hakim Amer - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/425 "2011-02-04T21:15:38Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > I’ll toss in two votes for Amer. Everyone else on the list appears to have been in the habit of making consistently bad decisions, or sustaining a single bad decision over an extended period of time. Amer made a single disastrously bad call, and it bit him in the rear pretty much before he could do anything to correct it. Amer performed badly whilst panicked - everyone else here performed badly whilst calm, collected, and entirely in their right minds. > > Amer was a bad general, of course - who isn’t, on this list? But he doesn’t deserve to win, and I think his time has come. Besides, I’m feeling generous towards Egypt this week. I dunno, I like Amer exactly because of the scale of the disaster against a numerically inferior foe and the fact it is easy to attribute much of it to command decisions he made. So often it is hard to apportion actual liability like that. With Amer, it is nice and easy 
 though of course, Nasser takes his share of the blame for the overall disaster. I prefer to boot Lopez. He’s more of an insane political leader than he is a bad general. Francisco Solano López - 2 Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna -2 Charles le Temeraire - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/426 "2011-02-04T22:06:34Z")
Sticking with: Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna – 2 Arthur Percival – 2 Adding: Abdel Hakim Amer – 1 Everybody except Elphinstone got at least a mention in the last round. Does this mean he’ll emerge “triumphant” at the end? Stay tuned
 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/427 "2011-02-04T22:11:37Z")
Luigi Cadorna - 2 Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna - 2 William George Keith Elphinstone - 1 The stakes weren’t as high for Elphinstone. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/428 "2011-02-04T22:12:46Z")
> [@Sternvogel](#): > > Everybody except Elphinstone got at least a mention in the last round. Does this mean he’ll emerge “triumphant” at the end? Stay tuned
 As I said, he’s a sentimental favorite. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/429 "2011-02-06T14:15:40Z")
Abdel Hakim Amer - 2 Votes Francisco Solano López - 2 Votes Charles le Temeraire -1 Votes I am really hoping Santa Anna does not get voted out this ‘early’. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/430 "2011-02-06T15:27:42Z")
My old stand bys Percival - 2 Elphinstone - 2 Cadorna - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/431 "2011-02-06T17:10:17Z")
Abdel Hakim Amer - 2 Arthur Percival - 2 Charles le Temeraire - 1 ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/432 "2011-02-07T15:49:17Z")
Well, you can see that it was ‘relatively easy’ up to about this point
and now there is serious variety on people’s choices. I think this means that these last seven really do stink about even in their own way. Getting down to the one might essentially be ‘random’. When I look at Saint Cad’s
his list is the ones I would consider the top 3 ‘winners’ of this contest 😃 I mean, look at these last ones. My God. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/433 "2011-02-07T16:01:59Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Luigi Cadorna - 2 > Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna - 2 > William George Keith Elphinstone - 1 > > The stakes weren’t as high for Elphinstone. The overwhelming majority of the men under his command died. Horribly. The families accompanying the army died. Horribly. The camp followers died. Horribly. That’s a hell of a butcher’s bill. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/434 "2011-02-07T16:03:24Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > The overwhelming majority of the men under his command died. Horribly. The families accompanying the army died. Horribly. The camp followers died. Horribly. That’s a hell of a butcher’s bill. That’s true. But 80% of the men in Paraguay died; Burgundy is now a region and not a nation. Elphinstone is small time. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/435 "2011-02-07T17:29:05Z")
The results from Round 32 of voting: **Abdel Hakim Amer - 8 Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna - 8** Francisco Solano López, Arthur Percival - 6 each Luigi Cadorna, William George Keith Elphinstone, Charles le Temeraire - 3 each Interesting. Percival went from just one vote last round, to six this round. The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves the Frightful Five: Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Douglas MacArthur William Halsey George A. Custer Curtis LeMay Lord Chelmsford George Tryon Geoffrey Spicer-Simson Benjamin F. Butler Xerxes I of Persia Ernest J. King Gaius Terentius Varro John A. McClernand Daniel Sickles Christian de Castries Maximilian von Prittwitz Rodolfo Graziani William Westmoreland Crassus William Calley Carlo di Persano Heinrich Himmler William H. Winder Ratko Mladić Paul D. Harkins Oreste Baratieri Romanus IV of Byzantium Varus Hermann Goering Zinovy Rozhestvensky William Hull George B. McClellan Judson Kilpatrick Thom Karremans Ambrose Burnside Gaius Claudius Glaber Douglas Haig Braxton Bragg Duke of Buckingham Maurice Gamelin Horatio Gates Manuel Fernandez Silvestre Nicias Tiberius Sempronius Longus Frederick William Stopford Napoleon III Philip VI James Ledlie John Bell Hood Charles Alexander of Lorraine Zhao Kuo Abdel Hakim Amer Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Weds. Feb. 9. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/436 "2011-02-07T17:32:10Z")
Cadorna 2 Elphinstone 2 Charles le Temeraire 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/437 "2011-02-07T18:21:51Z")
Crud, I got distracted by real-world timesinks and missed my chance to politick against Hood. 🙂 Leaving aside the question of “lies,” Hood certainly intrigued for the job of his superior officer – a fault not uncommon to generals of the period (or to generals, _period_). Summing up his career highlights: As a subordinate: [ul] [li]He won the charge at Boatswain Swamp, albeit at very high cost.[/li] [li]Wounded out at Gettysburg. His attack at the Devil’s Den went astray, but a lot of that happened after he had left the field, so it’s a null score.[/li] [li]Got lucky at Chickamauga when his column hit the accidentally-opened weak spot in the line, was promptly wounded out of the battle.[/li][/ul] As a leader: [ul] [li]Attacked Sherman outisde Atlanta, was defeated[/li] [li]Attacked Sherman outisde Atlanta, was defeated[/li] [li]Attacked Sherman outisde Atlanta, was defeated[/li] [li]Attacked Sherman outisde Atlanta, was defeated (yes, that’s four times)[/li] [li]Abandoned Atlanta to the enemy (the thing he had criticized his boss for preparing to do)[/li] [li]Massacred his army at Franklin to prove a point[/li] [li]Was annihilated at Nashville[/li][/ul] Once he was given command, he never won anything, while suffering horrendous casualties, and made two major strategic miscalculations to boot (refusing to defend Atlanta [he hated the defensive] until the critical Northern election results, and assuming that Sherman would have to conform to his movements). The reason I felt he was a strong contender for the finals, however, was not this long uninterrupted string of failures, huge casualties, and backstabbing; but one of the criteria I outlined originally. **Hood learned the wrong military lesson.** The Boatswain Swamp attack in the Seven Days was a straight-up charge up the center. Lee felt he needed to order it _because of the overall strategic situation_, not because a straight-up charge up the center is the apotheosis of warfare in the age of the MiniĂ© ball. The charge succeeded but at considerable cost. It’s not just Hood that was seduced by the drama of Boatswain Swamp. Lee would ultimately employ a vaguely similar straight-up charge up the center at Gettysburg, but only out of desperation, _and its failure deterred Lee from ever trying it again._ Hood, on the other hand, somehow absorbed only the idea that the charge had worked, and spent the rest of his career flinging men straight at heavily defended points and getting them killed, while angrily insisting that he knew better than everyone else and implying others were cowards (see especially the battle of Franklin). He never learned differently. Drawing the wrong conclusion from previous experience and applying it over and over in the face of contrary evidence is, IMHO, just about the worst military sin there is. Anyone can make a mistake once, or fail to anticipate a new technology (the enormous defensive power of massed rifles firing MiniĂ© balls); but drawing exactly the wrong conclusion and dunderheadedly applying it again and again is just surrendering to infantile emotionalism
and committing mass murder. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/438 "2011-02-07T18:42:48Z")
Poo, Santa Anna is gone. _sulk_! Anyway: **Francisco Solano López** - 2 votes **William George Keith Elphinstone** -2 votes - While his loss was horrible, I have to say that had he _won_ I think Afganistan would be exactly the same as it is today. and \*\* Charles le Temeraire\*\* 1 vote. Is is mean to call him a ‘piker’? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/439 "2011-02-07T19:04:39Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Poo, Santa Anna is gone. _sulk_! > > Anyway: > > **Francisco Solano López** - 2 votes > **William George Keith Elphinstone** -2 votes - While his loss was horrible, I have to say that had he _won_ I think Afganistan would be exactly the same as it is today. > > and > \*\* > Charles le Temeraire\*\* 1 vote. Is is mean to call him a ‘piker’? 😃 We’re ranking the worst generals in human history, men reknowned for the death and devestation they visited upon their own men and nations, purely for the joy of pointing at them and going “Ha-ha!” I think we’ve gone past the point where “mean” matters. 😃 While acknowledging **Tom Scud’s** point that Elphinstone’s defeat was relatively small potatoes in this august company, I still think he deserves to stay in a bit longer, and perhaps to win. **Sailboat’s** point that the cardinal military sin is to refuse to learn, or to learn the wrong lessons from experience, is on-point here. Elphinstone refused to learn, despite seeing the lesson repeated several times while besieged and retreating, that the Afghan rebels were not to be trusted. This refusal to learn cost him an army. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/440 "2011-02-07T19:06:00Z")
I’ll toss in two votes for **Percival**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=23)