# Worst Military Leader (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783 "2010-11-15T21:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/61 "2010-11-17T19:25:26Z")
I’ve enjoyed reading these threads though I dont know enough about military history to vote. What has been posted about Pyrrhus intrigues me. Is there a book or a website (or plurals of these) you could recommend that entertainingly covers his exploits? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/62 "2010-11-17T21:47:41Z")
> [@Elendil's Heir](#): > > > [@Sitnam](#): > > > > …Ulysses S. Grant - 2 The [C]rater assault at Vicksburg could have happened to any general… > > Nitpick: Petersburg. Man made a lot of craters. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/63 "2010-11-17T23:58:13Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Dugout Doug? Here’s what I wrote about him in that other thread: > > I believe the Philippines should have been much more defensible than Mac made them. The American/Filipino forces actually outnumbered the attacking Japanese. While it’s true the islands were isolated from reinforcements for a long time, they could have held out much longer and made more of a fight out of it i not for a series of misjudgments at the top, and near-panic. IMHO after several fantastic opening blunders, MacArthur succumbed to defeatism, since he knew home and help were far away, when he could have made a much better stand of it. Instead he was given the bum’s rush. I don’t disagree with you, really. I just don’t consider him nearly that bad. He was a hit-or-miss general who tended to brilliant or terrible decision, with nothing in between. Not the kind of man I want around, but not the worst, either. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/64 "2010-11-18T03:19:32Z")
Since Cump’s gotten so much attention, I’ll again share his Sept. 1864 letter to the city leaders of Atlanta. I believe it’s the perfect expression of his views on the war, and is one of the most pungent statements around of Union war goals (actually rivaling anything Lincoln wrote). It’s well worth reading in its entirety: [academicamerican.com - This website is for sale! - academicamerican Resources and Information.](http://www.academicamerican.com/expansioncw/civilwar/docs/ShermanAtl.htm) Scoring should be up shortly. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/65 "2010-11-18T03:46:03Z")
The results of our 1st round of voting: **Ulysses S. Grant - 29 William T. Sherman - 28** Pyrrhus of Epirus - 8 Benedict Arnold - 6 Douglas MacArthur - 5 George Tryon - 4 Earl of Cardigan, Cloudesley Shovell - 3 each Lord Chelmsford, William Hull, Curtis LeMay - 2 each Oreste Baratieri, George Armstrong Custer, Heinrich Himmler, James II of England, John A. McClernand, Arthur Percival, Gaius Terentius Varro, Xerxes I of Persia - 1 each **smiling bandit** voted a little late, but since that didn’t affect the elimination outcomes, I’ve tallied his votes too. Henceforth, however, _all_ votes must be by the deadline or will not be counted. Also, please be sure to use the name exactly as it appears below in casting your vote, unless it’s blindingly obvious who you mean (I had to search a bit for “Varus,” not realizing it was Varro). The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Benedict Arnold: Top Continental general turned traitor Oreste Baratieri: Routed by Ethiopians at Adowa Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general Duke of Buckingham: Useless sycophant, incompetent military leader Ambrose E. Burnside: Defeat from jaws of victory Benjamin Franklin Butler: “Beast” hated in New Orleans Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel William Calley: Ordered, led My Lai Massacre Earl of Cardigan: Charge of the Light Brigade Christian de Castries: Dien Bien Phu loser Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” Lord Chelmsford: Zulu dawn at Isandlwana Crassus: Army pincushioned by Parthians George Armstrong Custer: Cavalryman lost at Little Big Horn Carlo di Persano: Loser of Lissa William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Maurice Gamelin: Relied on the Maginot Line Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C. Gaius Claudius Glaber: Why fortify against slaves? Hermann Goering: Prancing figurehead misused Luftwaffe Rodolfo Graziani: Trounced in North Africa Douglas Haig: Incompetent British WWI general Bill Halsey: Leyte Gulf errors; two typhoons Paul D. Harkins: Ignorant, overoptimistic in Vietnam Heinrich Himmler: Nazi botched every field command John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West William Hull: Surrendered peacefully to inferior forces James II of England: Surrendered throne without a fight Thom Karremans: Toasted Mladić, allowed Srebenica massacre Hugh Judson Kilpatrick: Nicknamed “Kill Cavalry” for reason Ernest J. King: Anglophobe disastrously opposed Atlantic convoys James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Curtis LeMay: Reckless, nuke-happy SAC chief Tiberius Sempronius Longus: Lost to Carthage at Trebia Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay Douglas MacArthur: Dismissed from Korea by Truman George B. McClellan: Timid, bungling, arrogant Union commander John A. McClernand: Useless political hack hurt Union Ratko Mladić: Ordered Srebenica massacre; since indicted Napoleon III: Clobbered, captured at Sedan Nicias: Commanded ill-fated Syracuse expedition Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Philip VI of France: Crushed own army at Crécy Maximilian von Prittwitz: Peed his pants in Prussia Pyrrhus of Epirus: Invented new way of losing Romanus IV of Byzantium: Lost Battle of Manzikert Zinovy Rozhestvensky: Led Russian Navy to annihilation Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Cloudesley Shovell: Wrecked his fleet on Scilly Isles Daniel Sickles: Almost lost Gettysburg single-handedly Manuel Fernandez Silvestre: Lost badly in Spanish Morocco Geoffrey Spicer-Simson: Naval commander undone in Africa Frederick William Stopford: Blunderer at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli George Tryon: Sunk his flagship on maneouvres Gaius Terentius Varro: Blamed for defeat at Cannae Publius Quinctilius Varus: Army totally annihilated in Germany William Westmoreland: Brutal, unimaginative technocrat William H. Winder: Lost Upper Canada; Washington burned Xerxes I of Persia: Epic blunders in Greece Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Fri. Nov. 19. ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/66 "2010-11-18T13:21:18Z")
Lord Chelmsford: got even at [Ulundi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ulundi) 2 Benedict Arnold:2 Pyrrhus of Epirus 1 ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/67 "2010-11-18T13:38:27Z")
Benedict Arnold: 3 Pyrrhus: 2 Both for the reasons already discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/68 "2010-11-18T13:40:43Z")
Pyrrhus 2 convinced by others’ advocacy Douglas MacArthur 2 Will think more about the last one. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/69 "2010-11-18T13:49:29Z")
Round 2 voting! Yay! **Benedict Arnold -1** The man was a traitor, not incompetent. He effectively won Saratoga and when he was working for the British he was pretty devastating there for raids. **Earl of Cardigan -1** Again, he was an ass, but he got bad orders. **George B. McClellan -1** He wasn’t that horrible compared to other inept commanders. He also built the army that would defeat the Confederacy. **James II of England -1** He gave up without a fight because he knew his cause was effectively lost, at least at the time. **Lord Chelmsford: -1** Yes he lost a column at Islawanda. There were mitigating factors to the loss but it had the benefit of wiping out the bravest of the Zulus. I don’t think he lost a battle after that. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/70 "2010-11-18T14:00:23Z")
**Benedict Arnold** : 2. Same reasons as before, and as **Mr. Miskatonic** said. **Douglas MacArthur** : 2. He wasn’t a horrible general, more horrible at politics. **James II of England** : 1. He’s the _king_, he doesn’t have to be a military leader! ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/71 "2010-11-18T14:13:01Z")
I’m gonna go with **Pyrrhus** : 2. Though he gave his name to “pyrrhic victory”, he was actually thought a _great_ general of antiquity, and so doesn’t belong here. **Cloudesley Shovell** : 2, for reasons already mentioned. **George Tryon** : 1, same. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/72 "2010-11-18T15:41:47Z")
\*\*James II of England \*\*2 votes. He had no hope in England, was outnumbered in Ireland but fought well in Europe. **Earl of Cardigan** 2 votes. I agree, he wasn’t good but wasn’t the worst. **Ernest J. King** 1 vote. There is still much debate about his actions. His support of the Pacific campaign I believe was clearly correct. The lack of support for Convoys had more to do with his lack of available escort ships than his Anglophobia from what I understand. The man was an ass and clearly made mistakes but I don’t think he is the worst. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/73 "2010-11-18T15:59:27Z")
2 votes for **Benedict Arnold** - a fine general, and although he dabbled in treason, he redeemed himself by returning to the Crown’s service. Not his fault that fighting the colonists was too expensive to be worthwhile. 2 votes for **Pyrrhus**. And I’ll wait on the last vote, for now. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/74 "2010-11-18T16:08:45Z")
Benedict Arnold, a traitorous scumbag but not a bad field general - 2 Pyrrhus, I’m convinced by the experts here - 2 James II of England, didn’t actually lose a battle on the field, just chickened out at the end - 1 ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/75 "2010-11-18T16:41:23Z")
**Pyhrrus** - 2 **Benedict Arnold** - 1 **James II of England** - 1 **Cloudesley Shovell** - 1: You’ve convinced me that what happened to him could have happened to any naval commander during that era, so I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt despite a truly disastrous mishap (I’m not as willing to give the same benefit to George Tryon. I don’t think it’s too much to expect an admiral to avoid _ramming his ship into another ship!_) ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/76 "2010-11-18T17:44:22Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > The lack of support for Convoys had more to do with his lack of available escort ships than his Anglophobia from what I understand. In my initial phrasing, I tried to separate the Anglophobia out from the convoy issue, but they may have gotten conflated at some point. One group of, if I recall accurately, **ten** destroyers sat immobile in New York during Operation Drumbeat, and more Americans were killed sailing unescorted during that period than died at Pearl Harbor. King specifically refused to commit the destroyers for fear they’d be kept in the Atlantic on ASW duty where there was little chance for glory, and he’d have difficulty transferring them to fight a fleet action in the Pacific which was likelier to win appropriations for the Navy. The whole refusal to convoy was wrongheaded – convoy is an _offensive_ technique, not a _defensive_ one, as John Keegan has written, but in King’s case it was exacerbated by his desire to promote the Navy in the only theater he believed offered a chance for dramatic action and winning renown. I believe the Americans had plenty of resources to convoy shipping if they weren’t deliberately holding back resources for the Pacific. As soon as convoy was adopted, losses dropped. Over the whole course of the war, despite the German wolfpacks savaging numerous convoys, the loss of ships in convoy was negligible compared to unescorted losses. And the U-boats suffered disabling losses in the convoy battles and the highest casualty percentage of any arm of service in the war. Convoy was manifestly the correct solution and had so proved in the _First_ World War. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/77 "2010-11-18T18:33:44Z")
I would have to see a cite on those 10 destroyers and then I would gladly concede he was an idiot. I never heard that before. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/78 "2010-11-18T20:27:18Z")
Replacing the eliminated Civil War generals for whom I voted: Benedict Arnold – 2 Pyrrhus of Epirus – 2 Sticking with: Xerxes I of Persia – 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/79 "2010-11-18T20:32:59Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Benedict Arnold: 3 The rules state only two votes per voter per nominee. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/80 "2010-11-18T20:39:32Z")
> [@Sternvogel](#): > > The rules state only two votes per voter per nominee. Even if he’s just that bad… er, good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=5)