# Worst Military Leader (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783 "2010-11-15T21:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/81 "2010-11-18T21:59:30Z")
Pyrrhus - 2 Benedict Arnold - 1 Cloudesley Shovell - 1 Douglas MacArthur - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/82 "2010-11-18T23:17:01Z")
**Pyrrhus** - 2. Hand-to-mouth adventurer lacking in focus or even an iota of political sense. But nonetheless a much feared battlefield commander - far to good for this list. **Benedict Arnold** - 1. Treasonous and contentious, but militarily competent. **Cloudesly Shovel** - 1. Competent officer with a distinguished career. His one serious black mark an accident outside of combat, that was just as likely due to the screwups of others. **George Tryon** - 1. Meh. Passable career. Probably screwed up himself, but it wasn’t even during wartime. Peacetime navigational accidents don’t impress ( in terms of levels of suckitude 😉 ). ---
**Author:** ![kfraser34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@kfraser34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kfraser34)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/83 "2010-11-18T23:52:22Z")
2 for Hull - didn’t get much support from his superiors… got out witted by a highly skilled general 1 for Pyrrhus for reasons stated above 1 for Varus, he was more of a governor than a general and ended up in an no win situation 1 for the Earl of Cardigan… if the heavy brigade would have followed the light brigade like they were supposed things might have been different ya I copied and pasted… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/84 "2010-11-19T21:39:20Z")
The results of our 2nd round of voting: **Pyrrhus of Epirus - 20 Benedict Arnold - 16** James II of England - 6 Douglas MacArthur, Cloudesley Shovell - 5 each Earl of Cardigan - 4 Lord Chelmsford - 3 William Hull, George Tryon - 2 each Ernest J. King, George B. McClellan, Publius Quinctilius Varus, Xerxes I of Persia - 1 each The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Oreste Baratieri: Routed by Ethiopians at Adowa Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general Duke of Buckingham: Useless sycophant, incompetent military leader Ambrose E. Burnside: Defeat from jaws of victory Benjamin Franklin Butler: “Beast” hated in New Orleans Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel William Calley: Ordered, led My Lai Massacre Earl of Cardigan: Charge of the Light Brigade Christian de Castries: Dien Bien Phu loser Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” Lord Chelmsford: Zulu dawn at Isandlwana Crassus: Army pincushioned by Parthians George Armstrong Custer: Cavalryman lost at Little Big Horn Carlo di Persano: Loser of Lissa William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Maurice Gamelin: Relied on the Maginot Line Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C. Gaius Claudius Glaber: Why fortify against slaves? Hermann Goering: Prancing figurehead misused Luftwaffe Rodolfo Graziani: Trounced in North Africa Douglas Haig: Incompetent British WWI general Bill Halsey: Leyte Gulf errors; two typhoons Paul D. Harkins: Ignorant, overoptimistic in Vietnam Heinrich Himmler: Nazi botched every field command John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West William Hull: Surrendered peacefully to inferior forces James II of England: Surrendered throne without a fight Thom Karremans: Toasted Mladić, allowed Srebenica massacre Hugh Judson Kilpatrick: Nicknamed “Kill Cavalry” for reason Ernest J. King: Anglophobe disastrously opposed Atlantic convoys James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Curtis LeMay: Reckless, nuke-happy SAC chief Tiberius Sempronius Longus: Lost to Carthage at Trebia Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay Douglas MacArthur: Dismissed from Korea by Truman George B. McClellan: Timid, bungling, arrogant Union commander John A. McClernand: Useless political hack hurt Union Ratko Mladić: Ordered Srebenica massacre; since indicted Napoleon III: Clobbered, captured at Sedan Nicias: Commanded ill-fated Syracuse expedition Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Philip VI of France: Crushed own army at Crécy Maximilian von Prittwitz: Peed his pants in Prussia Romanus IV of Byzantium: Lost Battle of Manzikert Zinovy Rozhestvensky: Led Russian Navy to annihilation Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Cloudesley Shovell: Wrecked his fleet on Scilly Isles Daniel Sickles: Almost lost Gettysburg single-handedly Manuel Fernandez Silvestre: Lost badly in Spanish Morocco Geoffrey Spicer-Simson: Naval commander undone in Africa Frederick William Stopford: Blunderer at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli George Tryon: Sunk his flagship on maneouvres Gaius Terentius Varro: Blamed for defeat at Cannae Publius Quinctilius Varus: Army totally annihilated in Germany William Westmoreland: Brutal, unimaginative technocrat William H. Winder: Lost Upper Canada; Washington burned Xerxes I of Persia: Epic blunders in Greece Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Mon. Nov. 22. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/85 "2010-11-19T21:44:49Z")
Douglas MacArthur 2 Going to have to do some reading over the weekend to figure out who else deserves to be rescued. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/86 "2010-11-19T22:10:31Z")
Could someone make the case in a bit more detail for the Earl of Cardigan? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/87 "2010-11-19T22:22:37Z")
For keeping him in the pit or for letting him out? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/88 "2010-11-19T23:11:45Z")
James II of England, for the reasons stated earlier - 2 George Tryon, since a navigational screwup - even a comically inept one - shouldn’t keep anyone on this list of losers - 2 Cloudesley Shovell, ditto - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/89 "2010-11-20T00:27:29Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > For keeping him in the pit or for letting him out? Either. Both! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/90 "2010-11-20T01:08:06Z")
Lord Chelmsford:2 redeemed at Ulundi hmmm it gets harder now, I’m going to scratch off the duds who were mostly political so… Hermann Goering 2 Heinrich Himmler 1 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/91 "2010-11-20T04:05:12Z")
Yay! Round 3! OK, I am changing things up in my voting: **George Armstrong Custer** = 2 Votes. Custer was rash, and he got suckered into Little Big Horn, but part of that was poor intelligence about the number of Indians out there. Plus his rashness had served him well in the past. Many folks don’t know how he [probably saved the Union line during Pickett’s Charge at Gettysburg](http://custer.over-blog.com/article-17836412.html). Little reason to call him ‘worst’ by any means. **Douglas MacArthur** - 1 Vote. I am by no means a fan of “Dugout Doug”, and he has a lot of mistakes on his hands - plus he got more lucky at Inchon than anything else. But he did seem to learn from his mistakes. **Rodolfo Graziani** - 1 Vote. It was not his idea to take the unmechanized Italian army up against British tanks in the desert with no supply lines, and I believe he said as much. Maybe a genius could have pulled it off somehow, but leaders far from being the worst would have failed. **Earl of Cardigan** - Vote. Seriously. The man does not belong here. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/92 "2010-11-20T04:15:09Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Could someone make the case in a bit more detail for the Earl of Cardigan? From [wikipedia’s description of the Charge of the Light Brigade](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_of_the_Light_Brigade): > [@](#): > > Lucan received an order from the army commander Lord Raglan stating that “Lord Raglan wishes the Cavalry to advance rapidly to the front, follow the enemy, and try to prevent the enemy carrying away the guns. Troop Horse Artillery may accompany. French Cavalry is on your left. Immediate.” Raglan in fact wished the cavalry to prevent the Russians taking away the naval guns from the redoubts that they had captured on the reverse side of the Causeway Heights, the hill forming the right side of the valley (from the point of view of the cavalry). **Raglan could see what was happening from his high vantage-point on the west of the valley, but Lucan and the cavalry were unaware of what was going on owing to the lie of the land where they were drawn up.** [1] The order was drafted by Brigadier Richard Airey and was carried by Captain Louis Edward Nolan, who carried the further oral instruction that the cavalry was to attack immediately.[2] **When Lucan asked what guns were referred to, Nolan is said to have indicated, by a wide sweep of his arm, not the Causeway redoubts but the mass of Russian guns in a redoubt at the end of the valley,** around a mile away.[3] His reasons for the misdirection are unclear, as he was killed in the ensuing battle. > > … > > In response to the order, Lucan instructed Cardigan to lead 673 (some sources state 661; another 607[4]) cavalrymen straight into the valley between the Fedyukhin Heights and the Causeway Heights, > > … > > The Light Brigade set off down the valley with Cardigan out in front leading the charge. Almost at once Nolan was seen to rush across the front, passing in front of Cardigan. It may be that he then realized the charge was aimed at the wrong target and was attempting to stop or turn the brigade, but he was killed by an artillery shell and the cavalry continued on its course. Despite withering fire from three sides that devastated their force on the ride, the Light Brigade was able to engage the Russian forces at the end of the valley and force them back from the redoubt, > > …Lucan failed to provide any support for Cardigan, As you can see, it was not Cardigan’s fault given the poor orders, the poor instructions from Nolan, and Lucan’s given the order and failing to support him. A good book to read is ‘The Reason Why’. It was stunning how all these character’s lives were tied together. The remake of ‘Charge of the Light Brigade’ in the 60’s was based on that book - not the Flynn adventure movie of old - and it was very accurate. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/93 "2010-11-20T15:11:58Z")
No reason to change my votes. \*\*James II of England \*\*2 votes. He had no hope in England, was outnumbered in Ireland but fought well in Europe. **Earl of Cardigan** 2 votes. I agree, he wasn’t good but wasn’t the worst. **Ernest J. King** 1 vote. There is still much debate about his actions. His support of the Pacific campaign I believe was clearly correct. The lack of support for Convoys had more to do with his lack of available escort ships than his Anglophobia from what I understand. The man was an ass and clearly made mistakes but I don’t think he is the worst. Again, a cite on those 10 Destroyers and I will withdraw my vote. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/94 "2010-11-20T17:21:13Z")
**Cloudesley Shovell** - 2 **James II of England** - 2 **Earl of Cardigan** - 1 ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/95 "2010-11-20T23:12:39Z")
Since Xerxes isn’t getting any traction, I’ll vote to eliminate the front-runners whose cases have been made most convincingly: Douglas MacArthur – 2 points (even though I nominated him, I don’t truly consider him one of the “bottom five” any more than I thought he should have been a member of the elite quintet in the previous game) James II of England – 2 points (not primarily a military figure, and not a total loser on the battlefield) Earl of Cardigan – 1 point (interesting how the Crimean War lives on in so many fashion references; see also _balaclava_ and _Raglan sleeve_) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/96 "2010-11-20T23:24:01Z")
**Cloudesley Shovel** - 2. Victim of an accident after a solid career. **George Tryon** - 2. Peacetime navigational fuckup. Meh, I say again. MEH! Reserving my last vote for a bit as I ponder which other loser is the least loserly. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/97 "2010-11-21T01:25:03Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > **George Tryon** - 2. Peacetime navigational fuckup. Meh, I say again. MEH! Luckily for the British it was during peacetime. Imagine what a debacle it would have been if Tryon had waited until a war to ORDER HIS SHIPS TO RUN INTO EACH OTHER!!! Not that I particularly care whether Tryon is voted out soon, but I can’t stress enough that Tryon’s accident was in no way analogous to Shovell’s. Shovell wrecked in stormy weather because he lacked the technology necessary to accurately navigate. Tryon wrecked because he gave a stupid order that caused another ship to run directly into him (see [this graphic](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Victoria_collision_sequence.gif); the HMS Victoria is in red). I don’t care that it was a minor mistake in the grand scheme of things, I just think it’s such a stunning display of incompetence by a high-ranking officer that he deserves all the derision he gets. Imagine if Chester Nimitz, after winning at Midway, had crashed his remaining carriers into one another, sinking one and seriously damaging the other, and fouling up America’s naval operations for the remainder of 1942. Wouldn’t we be deriding him today for being such a colossal bonehead? ---
**Author:** ![kfraser34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@kfraser34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kfraser34)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2010, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/98 "2010-11-21T07:38:11Z")
2 for Hull - didn’t get much support from his superiors… got out witted by a highly skilled general 1 for Varus, he was more of a governor than a general and ended up in an no win situation 2 for the Earl of Cardigan… if the heavy brigade would have followed the light brigade like they were supposed things might have been different ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2010, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/99 "2010-11-21T08:27:20Z")
> [@kfraser34](#): > > 2 for the Earl of Cardigan… if the heavy brigade would have followed the light brigade like they were supposed things might have been different Poppycock - if the Heavy Brigade had followed, they’d have suffered the same fate. The Light Brigade were not ravaged by the guns they were attacking (and succeeded in reaching, incidentally), but rather by the Russian troops on the ridge overlooking the “valley of death”. More cavalry would have just meant more targets. If Cardigan had actually had any sort of military qualifications, he would have known better than to leave his flank so exposed. Apparently, he seemed to think that “tactics” were for infantry and other muck. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2010, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/100 "2010-11-21T13:51:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Poppycock - if the Heavy Brigade had followed, they’d have suffered the same fate. The Light Brigade were not ravaged by the guns they were attacking (and succeeded in reaching, incidentally), but rather by the Russian troops on the ridge overlooking the “valley of death”. More cavalry would have just meant more targets. > > If Cardigan had actually had any sort of military qualifications, he would have known better than to leave his flank so exposed. Apparently, he seemed to think that “tactics” were for infantry and other muck. And what was he supposed to cover his flank with? He was given an order to charge the guns (albeit misinterperted) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=6)