# Worst Military Leader (game thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783 "2010-11-15T21:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/101 "2010-11-21T14:21:08Z")
I don’t know - he could have sent a squadron or two to occupy the infantry while the rest of his force took out the guns; or perhaps had the horse artillery provide some covering fire; in short, a commander has a few more tricks up his sleeve than just shouting “everyone follow me!” Or barring that, he could have seen that the attack was obviously suicidal, and waited a few minutes to clarify the order. Of course, that would mean that the lives of his men was more important than his honor. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/102 "2010-11-21T15:02:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t know - he could have sent a squadron or two to occupy the infantry while the rest of his force took out the guns; The infantry was on a ridge. Cavalry has trouble with that. > [@](#): > > or perhaps had the horse artillery provide some covering fire; And where was the horse artillery? Probably the same place as the ‘supporting infantry’ from the first written order. > [@](#): > > in short, a commander has a few more tricks up his sleeve than just shouting “everyone follow me!” > > Or barring that, he could have seen that the attack was obviously suicidal, and waited a few minutes to clarify the order. Of course, that would mean that the lives of his men was more important than his honor. He had been given a direct order, twice, and had been chastised for not following it. He had already taken grief in the past for not following orders fast enough. Nolan was screaming at him to get on with it. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/103 "2010-11-21T16:56:25Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > He had been given a direct order, twice, and had been chastised for not following it. **He had already taken grief in the past for not following orders fast enough.** Nolan was screaming at him to get on with it. Emphasis added. And whose fault was that? The reason I think he deserves more blame for the Charge (though not full blame) than a strict recounting of the events indicates is because someone who had an ounce of credibility with his men, his fellow officers, or his superiors would have been able to resist the order, or have it clarified; because he had no discernible military virtues whatsoever and was only in the position he was because he politicked for it, Cardigan was unable to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/104 "2010-11-21T18:09:31Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Emphasis added. And whose fault was that? The reason I think he deserves more blame for the Charge (though not full blame) than a strict recounting of the events indicates is because someone who had an ounce of credibility with his men, his fellow officers, or his superiors would have been able to resist the order, or have it clarified; because he had no discernible military virtues whatsoever and was only in the position he was because he politicked for it, Cardigan was unable to do so. In fairness the grief was taken more by Lucan than by Cardigan, and Lucan gave the order to Cardiagan. The fact that Lucan and Raglan spent much effort trying to blame each other for the disaster. Furthermore, while Cardigan was very much a dick, much of his efforts in commanding the Charge helped reduce casualties. By keeping the men at a trot in the beginning he may have exposed the Brigade to more casualties from the canon lining the valley, but it meant their horses were not winded when they reached the Russian guns and the counterattack cavalry counterattack took place. Wikipedia concludes: > [@](#): > > The charge of the Light Brigade continues to be studied by modern military historians and students as an example of what can go wrong when accurate military intelligence is lacking and orders are unclear. Let me ask this: Does anyone blame Pickett for Pickett’s charge? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/105 "2010-11-22T15:40:04Z")
Cloudesley Shovel - 2 George Tryon - 2. I agree that Tyron’s order was more of a fuck-up than Shovel’s navagational error, but it still isn’t really worthy of the list. I’ll think on my last vote … ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/106 "2010-11-22T18:36:33Z")
Sorry, **Malthus** , too late for that final vote. The results of our 3rd round of voting: \*\*James II of England - 8 Earl of Cardigan, Cloudesley Shovell - 7 each \*\* George Tryon - 6 Douglas MacArthur - 5 Lord Chelmsford, George A. Custer, Hermann Goering, William Hull - 2 each Rodolfo Graziani, Heinrich Himmler, Ernest J. King, Publius Quinctilius Varus - 1 each The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves: Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967 Oreste Baratieri: Routed by Ethiopians at Adowa Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general Duke of Buckingham: Useless sycophant, incompetent military leader Ambrose E. Burnside: Defeat from jaws of victory Benjamin Franklin Butler: “Beast” hated in New Orleans Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel William Calley: Ordered, led My Lai Massacre Christian de Castries: Dien Bien Phu loser Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold” Lord Chelmsford: Zulu dawn at Isandlwana Crassus: Army pincushioned by Parthians George Armstrong Custer: Cavalryman lost at Little Big Horn Carlo di Persano: Loser of Lissa William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan Maurice Gamelin: Relied on the Maginot Line Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C. Gaius Claudius Glaber: Why fortify against slaves? Hermann Goering: Prancing figurehead misused Luftwaffe Rodolfo Graziani: Trounced in North Africa Douglas Haig: Incompetent British WWI general Bill Halsey: Leyte Gulf errors; two typhoons Paul D. Harkins: Ignorant, overoptimistic in Vietnam Heinrich Himmler: Nazi botched every field command John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West William Hull: Surrendered peacefully to inferior forces Thom Karremans: Toasted Mladić, allowed Srebenica massacre Hugh Judson Kilpatrick: Nicknamed “Kill Cavalry” for reason Ernest J. King: Anglophobe disastrously opposed Atlantic convoys James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater Curtis LeMay: Reckless, nuke-happy SAC chief Tiberius Sempronius Longus: Lost to Carthage at Trebia Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay Douglas MacArthur: Dismissed from Korea by Truman George B. McClellan: Timid, bungling, arrogant Union commander John A. McClernand: Useless political hack hurt Union Ratko Mladić: Ordered Srebenica massacre; since indicted Napoleon III: Clobbered, captured at Sedan Nicias: Commanded ill-fated Syracuse expedition Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan Philip VI of France: Crushed own army at Crécy Maximilian von Prittwitz: Peed his pants in Prussia Romanus IV of Byzantium: Lost Battle of Manzikert Zinovy Rozhestvensky: Led Russian Navy to annihilation Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha! Daniel Sickles: Almost lost Gettysburg single-handedly Manuel Fernandez Silvestre: Lost badly in Spanish Morocco Geoffrey Spicer-Simson: Naval commander undone in Africa Frederick William Stopford: Blunderer at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli George Tryon: Sunk his flagship on maneouvres Gaius Terentius Varro: Blamed for defeat at Cannae Publius Quinctilius Varus: Army totally annihilated in Germany William Westmoreland: Brutal, unimaginative technocrat William H. Winder: Lost Upper Canada; Washington burned Xerxes I of Persia: Epic blunders in Greece Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general” _Eliminated:_ Ulysses S. Grant William T. Sherman Pyrrhus of Epirus Benedict Arnold James II of England Earl of Cardigan Cloudesley Shovell Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Weds. Nov. 24. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/107 "2010-11-22T19:01:42Z")
Revised deadline: On further consideration, due to the Thanksgiving holidays and my own travel plans, the next round will end at noon EST this Fri. Nov. 26. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/108 "2010-11-22T19:13:21Z")
New Round! Sweet! OK, here goes: **Douglas McArthur** -1 Vote Again, does not really qualify as ‘worst’ by any means. **George Custer** -2 Votes I gave my reasons already. \*\*Maximilian von Prittwitz \*\*-1 Vote, His plan actually would have been valid had Russia been anything better than ‘utterly inept’. He would never have a chance to be proven right or wrong. Lucky for his replacements is that the Russian army was ‘utterly inept’. **Gaius Terentius Varro** - 1 Vote. There is a very good chance that Varro was not entirely at fault and the battle lost more by his co-commander. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/109 "2010-11-22T20:02:04Z")
Hey, that means I get an extra one later, right? Right? 😃 … But seriously … I’m still pushing to get George Tryon off - 2 Douglas McArthur shouldn’t be on either - some great plays, some terrible fuck-ups, but not ‘the worst’ - 2 Ernest J. King -1 Made some bad decisions, but not really worthy of “the worst”. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/110 "2010-11-22T20:03:20Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m still pushing to get George Tryon off - 2 Well, maybe you need to start pulling. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/111 "2010-11-22T21:20:06Z")
Bill Halsey: 2 votes. A single bad judgement call in the face of a well thought-out deception plan does not make a bad leader. Nor do the storms - Meterology was not then, and nor even now, a precise science. The man led the forces that smashed the IJN with great and brutal skill. John Bell Hood: 1 vote. In lesser commands, an extremely effective and capable tactician. Only when promoted beyond his skills did the wheel come off. Should have been left as a division commander. Gaius Terentius Varro: 1 vote. Livy was a bigot, and Aemilius Paullus was commanding the right wing - the wing that crumpled. The right wing was also traditionally commanded by the commander in chief, which would mean that Paullus had the command that day, not Varro. Also, despite his plebian background, Varro was warmly recieved on return to Rome, whilst the other leaders involved were savagely criticised. Conclusion: Varro was very likely railroaded by his rivals well-placed relatives and sycophants, including Polybius. Douglas MacArthur: 1 vote. Arrogant and a jerk, but loyal to his men, a skilled leader, and ultimately loyal to his country - He honestly thought that he read the global strategic situation more correctly than the President or Secretary of State. When called on the carpet, he went away as ordered. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/112 "2010-11-23T02:27:59Z")
Sticking with: Douglas MacArthur – 2 votes Adding: George Custer – 2 votes (spectacular loss in his fatal battle overshadows Civil War success – I’m reminded of the Buffalo Bills seen as chokers because they lost so many Super Bowls, while truly awful teams of the era are long forgotten) Bill Halsey – 1 vote (again, a decent won-lost percentage despite a notorious blunder) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/113 "2010-11-23T04:05:37Z")
Bill Halsey (a relative of mine by marriage), for the reasons stated - 2 George Tryon, for the reasons stated - 2 I’ll reserve my last vote in this round for now. **Tranquilis** , Douglas MacArthur was “loyal to his men”? How so? I thought he was notorious for not particularly caring about the GIs in the field. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/114 "2010-11-23T06:48:17Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > **Tranquilis** , Douglas MacArthur was “loyal to his men”? How so? I thought he was notorious for not particularly caring about the GIs in the field. Maybe he wasn’t all that empathetic on a personal level - however, his “island hopping” strategy could be seen as much more effective in terms of keeping his men alive, especially compared to the way the Marines were used in the POA. MacArthur never send his infantry off on a direct assault if he could avoid it; you could hardly say the same about Nimitz. I don’t have the numbers with me, but I think MacArthur lost far fewer men than Nimitz, both in relative and absolute terms. ---
**Author:** ![kfraser34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@kfraser34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kfraser34)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/115 "2010-11-23T07:29:18Z")
2 for Hull - didn’t get much support from his superiors… got out witted by a highly skilled general 1 for Varus, he was more of a governor than a general and ended up in an no win situation 2 Crassus just because he supported Caesar… ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/116 "2010-11-23T13:43:46Z")
## copy pasted from last post Lord Chelmsford:2 redeemed at Ulundi ## Hermann Goering 2 Heinrich Himmler 1 do you guys really think Chelmsford was that bad? [He was mentioned in despatches](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentioned_in_Dispatches) and he had great facial [hair](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/2ndLordChelmsford.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/117 "2010-11-23T15:07:07Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > **Tranquilis** , Douglas MacArthur was “loyal to his men”? How so? I thought he was notorious for not particularly caring about the GIs in the field. I never said he was _nice_ to them. In fact, he wasn’t. But he took care for them - all his campaigns were carefully planned and plotted to keep casualties as low as achievable, consistent with the goals. That’s real loyalty - Taking care of the troops in the ways that ultimately matter. Further, his passionate insistence on retaking the Phillipines was in large part due to his loyalty to the Fillipino people and soldiers. Sure, there was the ego thing, but he _loved_ the Phillipines and managed, despite general military consensus that the Phillipines were not strategically important, to get them relieved. Ironically, that relief actually spurred the fleet actions that finshed breaking the IJN forever, hastening the end of the war. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/118 "2010-11-23T16:28:41Z")
I’ll stick with 2 votes for **GA Douglas MacArthur** and 2 votes for **LTC George Custer**. No idea for my fifth vote this week. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/119 "2010-11-23T16:32:37Z")
**Douglas MacArthur** 2 **George Armstrong Custer** 2 since both of them had notable successes as well as failures. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783/120 "2010-11-23T16:33:34Z")
Lord Chelmsford - 2 (Bonus vote for the facial hair) Douglas MacArthur - 1 Bill Halsey - 1 Gaius Varro - 1 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-military-leader-game-thread/560783.md?page=7)