Neat!
Yeah, but…that was…
Are you going to make me come out and say it?
I’d like to see an argument advanced that Xerxes I of Persia blundered a lot. I think he ran into one of the greatest fighting forces of all time (Sparta) and an admiral who survived a fair distance into our “Greatest Military Leader” competition, Themistocles. Defeat by absolutely first-rate opposition somewhat ameliorates losing despite the numerical and cash advantage Persia had.
I’m going to make a push to get Dan Sickles, who positioned his force badly in one battle, and John McClernand, who was ordered to make what turned out to be a monetarily corrupt wild goose chase up the Red River and away from the main theaters of the war, off the list before Ben Butler, who screwed up an entire campaign at Bermuda Hundred and had several other notable defeats, all while holding the numerical advantage. Butler may not belong in the “bottom ten,” that’s a matter of opinion, but he surely made a worse hash of things over a longer period than the other two.
Geoffrey Spicer-Simson - 2
Daniel Sickles - 2
John McClernand - 1
It’s past time that I tried to cobble together a list of the “military vices” I consider to be criteria for the worst of the worst.
Proposed criteria for “Worst Military Leader” in rough order of most important to least important:
[ul]
[li]repeated failure - number of defeats (e.g., Cadorna)[/li][li]learning the wrong military lesson from failure or success (e. g., Hood)[/li][li]losing despite advantages (especially numerical) (e.g., Xerxes)[/li][li]arrogance and failure to recognize own foibles (e.g., not Burnsides)[/li][li]losing a battle of annihilation (e.g., Crassus, Varro)[/li][li]logistical blunders (e.g., Burnsides’ inability to cross at Fredericksburg, and Mud March)[/li][li]cowardice/personal flight (e.g., Ledlie)[/li][li]high casualties, esp. repeatedly, esp. for no gain (lots of them)[/li][/ul]
Others may have different criteria or offer up something I’ve forgotten; everyone will differ on how to weigh the criteria into rank order, and how to apply them to the unfortunates under discussion, but it’s something to think about.
I rank “Learning the wrong military lesson” especially high, because before the crucible of battle, a lot of theories are untested, and often variables such as new technologies, tactics, and opponents create understandable risk of mistakes. SO I’m inclined to be more forgiving of first-time mistakes. But with lives at stake, failure to analyze actual conflicts once they’ve happened and adapt to those lessons is a signal failing common to the truly bad leaders who have killed their own men and doomed their own causes.
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That’s a great list of military anti-virtues, Sailboat. The only thing I’d add is rather subjective, and builds on all the others - that a truly formidable loser should posess a certain panache, or rather, anti-panache - to lose in a manner particularly memorable and humiliating.
Those are all good points, Sailboat and Malthus. Not a bad yardstick at all. Thanks!
Half an hour to go.
The results of our 7th round of voting:
Geoffrey Spicer-Simson - 11
Benjamin F. Butler - 10
Christian de Castries, Ernest J. King, John A. McClernand, Gaius Terentius Varro - 3 each
Daniel Sickles, William Westmoreland - 2 each
Hermann Goering, Xerxes I of Persia - 1 each
The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves:
Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967
Oreste Baratieri: Routed by Ethiopians at Adowa
Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general
Duke of Buckingham: Useless sycophant, incompetent military leader
Ambrose E. Burnside: Defeat from jaws of victory
Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel
William Calley: Ordered, led My Lai Massacre
Christian de Castries: Dien Bien Phu loser
Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence
Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold”
Crassus: Army pincushioned by Parthians
Carlo di Persano: Loser of Lissa
William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan
Maurice Gamelin: Relied on the Maginot Line
Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C.
Gaius Claudius Glaber: Why fortify against slaves?
Hermann Goering: Prancing figurehead misused Luftwaffe
Rodolfo Graziani: Trounced in North Africa
Douglas Haig: Incompetent British WWI general
Paul D. Harkins: Ignorant, overoptimistic in Vietnam
Heinrich Himmler: Nazi botched every field command
John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West
William Hull: Surrendered peacefully to inferior forces
Thom Karremans: Toasted Mladić, allowed Srebenica massacre
Hugh Judson Kilpatrick: Nicknamed “Kill Cavalry” for reason
Ernest J. King: Anglophobe disastrously opposed Atlantic convoys
James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater
Tiberius Sempronius Longus: Lost to Carthage at Trebia
Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay
George B. McClellan: Timid, bungling, arrogant Union commander
John A. McClernand: Useless political hack hurt Union
Ratko Mladić: Ordered Srebenica massacre; since indicted
Napoleon III: Clobbered, captured at Sedan
Nicias: Commanded ill-fated Syracuse expedition
Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan
Philip VI of France: Crushed own army at Crécy
Maximilian von Prittwitz: Peed his pants in Prussia
Romanus IV of Byzantium: Lost Battle of Manzikert
Zinovy Rozhestvensky: Led Russian Navy to annihilation
Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha!
Daniel Sickles: Almost lost Gettysburg single-handedly
Manuel Fernandez Silvestre: Lost badly in Spanish Morocco
Frederick William Stopford: Blunderer at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli
Gaius Terentius Varro: Blamed for defeat at Cannae
Publius Quinctilius Varus: Army totally annihilated in Germany
William Westmoreland: Brutal, unimaginative technocrat
William H. Winder: Lost Upper Canada; Washington burned
Xerxes I of Persia: Epic blunders in Greece
Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general”
Eliminated:
Ulysses S. Grant
William T. Sherman
Pyrrhus of Epirus
Benedict Arnold
James II of England
Earl of Cardigan
Cloudesley Shovell
Douglas MacArthur
William Halsey
George A. Custer
Curtis LeMay
Lord Chelmsford
George Tryon
Geoffrey Spicer-Simson
Benjamin F. Butler
Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Mon. Dec. 6.
Sticking with:
Christian de Castries – 2 votes
Xerxes I of Persia – 2 votes
William Westmoreland – 1 vote
Varro - 2 Votes. Same reasons as before.
Rodolfo Graziani - 2 Votes. Again he was given a near impossible job, and he knew it
George B. McClellan -1 Vote - We’re getting to the point in this game where we are not just weeding out the people who have no business on this list, but merely removing the minor ‘badness’ from the board. McClellan was timid, and that cost the Union. But he was not useless - it was his work that built the Union army.
Ernest J. King, made some mistakes but wasn’t nearly as big a loser as the others remaining - 2
John A. McClernand, ditto - 2
Xerxes I of Persia, ditto - 1
I’m only voting for 1 this time:
Ernest J. King - 2 votes
Ernest J. King - 2
Christian de Castries - 2
John A. McClernand - 1: Seems like Grant was able to restrain him from screwing anything up too badly.
*Our traditional picture of Xerxes is a caricature, put together from hostile, and faintly contemptuous, Greek propaganda. We see him as a small, blubbering, effeminate Oriental, a cowardly despot ruled by his women and the eunuchs…cruel in victory, spineless in defeat. Persian sources ( no doubt equally prejudiced in the opposite direction ) reveal a very different man…
Modern scholars, whether classical historians or Orientalists, disagree sharply over Xerxes’ character and achievements. Some deny him the military ability, let alone the statecraft, of his predecessors; others praise him as a remarkable soldier, administrator and reformer. This depends, by and large, on their relative assessment of Greek and Persian propaganda. Somewhere between these two extremes - between The Persians and Perseopolis - the truth must lie…Contrary to popular belief, his record includes a long list of striking military successes.*
From The Greco-Persian Wars by Peter Green ( 1996, University of California Press ).
Xerxes - 2. Green’s Xerxes comes off as temperamental and vainglorious, but also intelligent and methodical. He should take some responsibility for the disaster at Salamis, but his actions there don’t really seem that of an utter incompetent - it appears he was just outmaneuvered in more than one sense. By Plataea and Mycale he was out of the direct picture.
Gaius Terrentius Varro - 2. Sticking with him for previously stated reasons.
Ernest J. King - 1. Controversial doesn’t equal crap.
Xerxes - 2 (The Greeks were simply the best soldiers of their time, as Alexander would demonstrate later)
I would add to Sailboat & Malthus’s list some element of importance; defeats that bring down an empire are more important to me than blunders in a winning cause.
The results of our 8th round of voting:
Xerxes I of Persia - 7
Ernest J. King - 7
Christian de Castries, Gaius Terentius Varro - 4 each
John A. McClernand - 3
Rodolfo Graziani - 2
George B. McClellan, William Westmoreland - 1 each
The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves:
Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967
Oreste Baratieri: Routed by Ethiopians at Adowa
Braxton Bragg: Bungling, irritating Confederate general
Duke of Buckingham: Useless sycophant, incompetent military leader
Ambrose E. Burnside: Defeat from jaws of victory
Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel
William Calley: Ordered, led My Lai Massacre
Christian de Castries: Dien Bien Phu loser
Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence
Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold”
Crassus: Army pincushioned by Parthians
Carlo di Persano: Loser of Lissa
William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan
Maurice Gamelin: Relied on the Maginot Line
Horatio Gates: Fled headlong from Camden, S.C.
Gaius Claudius Glaber: Why fortify against slaves?
Hermann Goering: Prancing figurehead misused Luftwaffe
Rodolfo Graziani: Trounced in North Africa
Douglas Haig: Incompetent British WWI general
Paul D. Harkins: Ignorant, overoptimistic in Vietnam
Heinrich Himmler: Nazi botched every field command
John Bell Hood: Recklessly stupid, lost Atlanta, West
William Hull: Surrendered peacefully to inferior forces
Thom Karremans: Toasted Mladić, allowed Srebenica massacre
Hugh Judson Kilpatrick: Nicknamed “Kill Cavalry” for reason
James Ledlie: Drunk during Battle of Crater
Tiberius Sempronius Longus: Lost to Carthage at Trebia
Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay
George B. McClellan: Timid, bungling, arrogant Union commander
John A. McClernand: Useless political hack hurt Union
Ratko Mladić: Ordered Srebenica massacre; since indicted
Napoleon III: Clobbered, captured at Sedan
Nicias: Commanded ill-fated Syracuse expedition
Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan
Philip VI of France: Crushed own army at Crécy
Maximilian von Prittwitz: Peed his pants in Prussia
Romanus IV of Byzantium: Lost Battle of Manzikert
Zinovy Rozhestvensky: Led Russian Navy to annihilation
Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha!
Daniel Sickles: Almost lost Gettysburg single-handedly
Manuel Fernandez Silvestre: Lost badly in Spanish Morocco
Frederick William Stopford: Blunderer at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli
Gaius Terentius Varro: Blamed for defeat at Cannae
Publius Quinctilius Varus: Army totally annihilated in Germany
William Westmoreland: Brutal, unimaginative technocrat
William H. Winder: Lost Upper Canada; Washington burned
Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general”
Eliminated:
Ulysses S. Grant
William T. Sherman
Pyrrhus of Epirus
Benedict Arnold
James II of England
Earl of Cardigan
Cloudesley Shovell
Douglas MacArthur
William Halsey
George A. Custer
Curtis LeMay
Lord Chelmsford
George Tryon
Geoffrey Spicer-Simson
Benjamin F. Butler
Xerxes I of Persia
Ernest J. King
Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Weds. Dec. 8.
Woo-Hoo! New Round
OK, these first two really should be off:
Gaius Terentius Varro - 2 Votes - We’ve covered this
Rodolfo Graziani - 2 Votes - He had an impossible situation and knew it.
Maximilian von Prittwitz -1 Vote - Start this guy up again - His reasoning was sound but it assumed a competent Russian Army. The Generals who replacement were lucky in that the Russians were anything but competent. He never had a chance to be proved right or wrong in normal circumstances. He’s hardly a paragon but he’s not the worst general by a long shot.
Varro, I’m persuaded - 2
John A. McClernand, made some mistakes but wasn’t nearly as big a loser as the others remaining - 2
Daniel Sickles, ditto - 1
Sticking with:
Christian de Castries – 2 votes
William Westmoreland – 2 votes
Adding:
John A. McClernand – 1 vote
Gaius Terentius Varro - 2
Christian de Castries - 2
John McClernand - 1
Ugh, can’t give this the time and attention I’d like to.
John McClernand - 2
Daniel Sickles - 2
William Calley - 1
McClernand led a pointless campaign that cost the government a lot of money, although not too high in casualties; Sickles made one (galring) mistake in one battle. Gettysburg was undeniably one of the turning points of the war, but Sickles’ mistake didn’t even lose the battle, and Sickles himself acted bravely when wounded, insisting on smoking a cigar while being carried to the rear so the men could see he was still breathing. He later went on to a political career and what one historian memorably described as a “well-publicized liaison with the deposed nymphomaniac Queen of Spain.” He periodically visited the grave where his leg was buried for the rest of his life. Sickles might have been a fun guy to meet, as long as he wasn’t sending you out to stand in an exposed peach orchard.
Calley appears to have been the sort of all-too-familiar, garden-variety villain that wars regularly produce. I don’t doubt that wars, especially long ones and bitter civil conflicts, brutalize participants to the point that they take out their fear, frustration and military impotence on the helpless.
Such senseless brutality is, frankly, too common. The names stain our collective memory: No Gun Ri, Malmedy, Nanking, Lawrence Kansas, Bataan, endless medieval chevauchees, Katyn, Lidice, Wounded Knee, Tiananmen Square, Srebrenica…and that’s just off the top of my head…a list of words that leave a hollow feeling in the pits of our stomachs.
Calley’s only claim to being on this list is the contribution his massacre of civilians made to his side’s losing the war. That was a significant contribution, IMHO, although not as significant as Westmoreland’s. Still, although a foreseeable consequence, it was only indirectly a military consequence. And Calley is pretty small potatoes in terms of rank and number of men he led astray. He’s an interesting choice to put on this list but I don’t think he should stay here long.
Hell is waiting.
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John McClernand - 2
Maximilian von Prittwitz - 2 (I’m inclined to forgive over-caution more easily than rashness)
William Calley - 1 (too junior, and I’m ready to start voting off the war criminals now).
I understand your position, but I do think that my man Calley can stand a bit more time on this list. I’ll grant that wars produce atrocities, but part of the “horribleness” of any candidate for the top spot on this list is the gap between expectations and actual performance. No one here really faults generals who were routed by overwhelming forces, for example. And I don’t think many here would have nominated Henry V for his massacre of the French prisoners at Agincourt - it was appalling even for the day, but less so than it would be for a modern Army.
But Calley turned his troops loose on civilians in a context where it was entirely clear that he knew what he was doing. There wasn’t even a bad argument for confusion here. It was pure, gratuitous cruelty perpetrated by members of a military that held itself to be far above such things. It is telling, I think, that the helicopter pilot who helped put a stop to the massacre and evaced survivors was given military honors, thirty years after the event. http://www.usna.edu/Ethics/Publications/ThompsonPg1-28_Final.pdf