# Worst possible combat role in WWII? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 30, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887 "2015-04-30T13:32:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/21 "2015-04-30T15:47:42Z")
At the beginning of WWI, only the first wave of Russian infantry was armed. The second and third wave was instructed to retrieve weapons from the fallen. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/22 "2015-04-30T15:59:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Losses per sortie were much higher for RAF bomber crews than for the USAAF. I don’t really understand why since the RAF was flying at night and the Lancasters were a bit safer than B-17s. Total WAG: The RAF spent a longer proportion of the war without the benefit of long-range fighter support? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/23 "2015-04-30T16:35:09Z")
> [@dr\_zippermeyer](#): > > Sorry, obviously this belonged to In My Humble Opinion (IMHO) section right? Could a moderator kindly move this? Done. ---
**Author:** ![jezzaOZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9a28c/32.png) [@jezzaOZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jezzaOZ)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/24 "2015-04-30T17:16:20Z")
Not the worst, but pretty bad and avoidable British Fighter Pilots in the Battle Of Britain had close to zero chance of survival when shot down over the channel. The British had no working air-sea rescue service so when the pilots ditched all they could do is look to Blighty and drown or die of exposure after a few hours. The Germans had white painted sea-planes with red crosses to rescue their pilots (and British pilots), but very soon Churchill gave orders to shoot down the rescue aircraft, calculating it would hurt the Germans more than the British. Later in the war the British developed a working rescue service and stemmed their massive loss of pilots. Going a bit further back in time, being a fighter pilot in the Great War had mean survival time measured in days down to hours for new pilots. Parachutes were mostly discouraged as it was though pilots should attempt to save their aircraft at all costs. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/25 "2015-04-30T18:45:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > At the Battle of Stalingrad several western sources suggest that Soviet troops were being sent to the front in pairs, with one gun per pair (you might remember seeing it in the film _Enemy at the Gates_ and in the first _Call of Duty_ game.) The historicity of this is questionable but it seems like a pretty awful way to be sent into the field. That’s Hollywood getting its wars wrongs; as **carnivorousplant** noted lack of enough rifles to equip the infantry was a serious problem in WWI for Czarist Russia, not the USSR in WW2. The Soviet Union was producing far more than enough rifles and was distributing submachine guns like they were candy - [1.5 million PPSh-41s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPSh-41) were produced in 1942 (with Stalingrad starting at the end of the year) out of a total production run of 6 million. Since it started in GQ, worst job was the poor bloody infantry, which was taking upwards of [90% of the casualties](http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/usarmy/manpower.aspx): > [@](#): > > Worse, the planning factors for replacements by branch were badly out of kilter. The original War Department replacement-planning factor for infantry was 64.3 percent of total casualties. Following continued pleas from Europe the factor was raised to 70.3 percent in April 1944. However, the fighting in Normandy soon showed that this was still much too low. By mid July the ETO estimate was that 90 percent of total casualties occurred in the infantry. Infantry divisions saw 100 percent losses in rifle strength in the two months after D-Day. The lack of Infantry replacements soon approached near disastrous proportions. For example, on 8 December 1944 the Third Army was short 11,000 infantrymen. This was only about four percent of the Third Army’s total strength, but was the equivalent of fifty-five rifle companies - the rifle strength of two infantry divisions - or close to fifteen percent of the infantry combat power of the Third Army. > > The Infantry further suffered from the Army’s personnel policy, which allocated the most highly qualified and intelligent people to specialist arms (Airborne, Ranger, Artillery, Armor, and Engineers). The Infantry was filled with men who had scored lowest on the AGCT (the Army General Classification Test) - an intelligence and aptitude test and those who had not held a skilled job in civilian life. The elimination of the ASTP (the Army Specialized Training program), which allowed selected enlisted men to gain a college education while deferring induction into the Army and the reduction of specialized troop units (especially antiaircraft) had remedied matters to some degree by the end of 1944. Nevertheless, mediocre motivation and low intelligence continued to plague the Infantry. > > Intense combat and heavy losses in 1943 meant that in 1944 many divisions still in the United States were stripped of trained men to build up the replacement pool. Some divisions were stripped of available manpower a second time later in 1944. This in turn affected the training cycle of the divisions, causing some to deploy late and requiring most to have some problems with their initial combat deployment. Four armor, one airborne, and seventeen infantry divisions (nearly one-quarter of the total formed) were eventually subject to large scale stripping of men (nearly all of the other divisions in training also had smaller numbers of personnel stripped out prior to deployment). Fourteen of the seventeen infantry divisions were stripped twice. The aggregate affect was tremendous the 69th Infantry Division lost 1,336 officers and 22,235 men, nearly enough personnel to form two divisions. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/26 "2015-04-30T18:51:07Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Actually, being any member of a bomber crew was pretty bad-high casualty rates. The thing I find the most staggering is that the 8th Air Force had more KIA/WIA than the entire US Marine Corps did during WWII, and had a higher percentage KIA as well (7% vs 3%). Not much media coverage of that- by the way the USMC propaganda machine spins things, you’d think that they had the highest casualty rates of any service, etc… ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/27 "2015-04-30T18:56:56Z")
Sherman tank crewman in 1944-1945. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/28 "2015-04-30T19:07:05Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Sherman tank crewman in 1944-1945. That plan to build more Shermans than there were Panzers had some drawbacks. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/29 "2015-04-30T19:07:19Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Sherman tank crewman in 1944-1945. US Shermans had amongst the best creature comforts of any tanks, the best logistical support, and the degree to which they were dangerous and suffered losses is massively exaggerated in popular history. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/30 "2015-04-30T19:07:41Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > It’s hard to imagine a worse job than that faced by Japanese soldiers defending Iwo Jima. > > The Japanese on Iwo Jima KNEW they had no hope of survival, much less victory. The best they could hope for was to hide in their bunkers or tunnels, sneak out occasionally to kill as many Americans as they could, and wait to be burned to death by flamethrowers. Operating the flamethrower was no piece of cake, either, once the enemy figured out how to turn the operator into a human torch. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/31 "2015-04-30T19:10:39Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Actually, being any member of a bomber crew was pretty bad-high casualty rates. I also think being a “sapper” (combat engineer) was pretty bad. “I was a Combat Engineer. Isn’t that ridiculous? The two things I hate most in the world are combat and engineering.” Mel Brooks ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/32 "2015-04-30T19:27:38Z")
> [@dr\_zippermeyer](#): > > I vote for flame thrower operator…If they captured you they probably murdered you for killing so brutally their comrades. True, but from what I read, by analogy, captured American bomber pilots who firebombed Japanese cities were still only beheaded or shot. I thought they would have been in for far worse treatment but apparently weren’t. So maybe flamethrower guys would still only have gotten a quick bullet to the head. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/33 "2015-04-30T19:52:31Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > US Shermans had amongst the best creature comforts of any tanks, the best logistical support, and the degree to which they were dangerous and suffered losses is massively exaggerated in popular history. Tell that to [this guy](http://www.3ad.com/history/wwll/feature.pages/death.traps.htm). They called them Ronsons for a reason. > [@](#): > > With their heavier armor, the Panther and Tiger were almost impervious to rounds fired from the Sherman’s 75 or 76 mm main gun; conversely, the 88 mm gun on the German tanks usually made short work of their American opponents. > > Tabulating the results of this mismatch, Cooper highlights the staggering cost of the Army’s flawed choice for its main battle tank. Over the next 11 months, the Third Armored Division, which began the Normandy campaign with 232 M4 tanks, would see 648 of its Shermans destroyed in combat, with another 700 knocked out of commission before being repaired and returned to service - a cumulative loss rate of 580 percent. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/34 "2015-04-30T20:03:04Z")
Yeah, that’s the history channel version of history, but it’s wrong. Tank vs tank combat was relatively rare on the western from in WW2. Most of a tanker’s combat duty was facing against infantry and hardened positions, and scattered resistance during a pursuit. There’s drama, almost like a boss fight in video games, when a rare German tank shows up to the battle and everyone diverts its attention to taking it down, but it was relatively infrequent. The Sherman was well suited for most of the duties it faced. As far as casualty rates - it was a beachhead breakout in extremely dense tank-unfriendly country against a country that had 4 years to develop and combat test its close in anti-tank weapons against another major power with tons of medium tanks. That’s a recipe for losses. Shermans did have a problem with the ammo catching fire when hit early on, though, that’s true. But it was rectified pretty quickly with wet storage. So even then that was a fairly short lived factor. Usually the people who subscribe to the same “the Sherman was the sux0rs” history channel glossed over interpretation of WW2 also said “The t-34 was a great tank! best tank of the war!” which is funny, because when Soviet divisions had proved themselves to be amongst the best of the Soviet army and were designated Guards divisions and received better equipment as a result, they were given the lend-lease Shermans. It was a reward - Soviet soldiers considered them to be significantly superior to the T-34. And they didn’t even get the best ones. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/35 "2015-04-30T20:03:04Z")
Consider anyone who had to remove bodies from a burned-out tank. Garth Ennis briefly deals with this in one of his stories. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/36 "2015-04-30T20:24:27Z")
Kurt Vonnegut’s stint as a corpse miner after Dresden was no picnic either. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/37 "2015-04-30T20:25:04Z")
Dad shoveled brains out of aircraft with his hands to be able to do repairs. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/38 "2015-04-30T22:05:29Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > here’s drama, almost like a boss fight in video games, when a rare German tank shows up to the battle and everyone diverts its attention to taking it down, but it was relatively infrequent. For some reason that made me laugh out loud, sorry! This is a really interesting thread actually. I was going to mention RAF Bomber Command as well but I see someone has already done so. Though if I recall correctly Winston Churchill singled out all other branches of the British services for individual praise and recognition during his victory speech but pointedly left out Bomber Command as its role in bombing German cities was already making the powers that be uncomfortable. It was a low thing to do, saying as he was the one who sent them there in the first place. Yes I realise it wasn’t his personal decision but it was under his ultimate authority. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/39 "2015-04-30T23:12:45Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Ball turret gunner in a USAAF bomber. Impossible to get out of, if the plane is going down. Actually, being any member of a bomber crew was pretty bad-high casualty rates. I also think being a “sapper” (combat engineer) was pretty bad. A few years back I went to a talk by a guy who was a tail-gunner in a Lancaster and it sounded like a truly shitty job - hours alone, in the dark, freezing your ass off and hoping the next light you see isn’t from the the cannons of a German night-fighter. He had some pretty funny stories though - the difference between flying night combat missions and daytime ones (“I can see my gunsight!”) and their encounter with an Me163 Komet ("Something went blasting _straight up_ through our formation and a few minutes later came racing _straight back down_ with 5 or 6 American fighters hot on its tail!) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/40 "2015-05-01T01:49:46Z")
I do not recall the author of a poem, “The Ball Turret Gunner”, but the last line is, “and they wash me out with a hose.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887.md?page=3)