# Worst possible combat role in WWII? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 30, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887 "2015-04-30T13:32:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/101 "2015-05-12T17:37:08Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > That’s a hell of a lot of instructors. :dubious: Not as many as you might think. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/102 "2015-05-12T18:19:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not as many as you might think. ☹ Ah. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/103 "2015-05-12T18:57:19Z")
> [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > Sounds like you spent your short time on Earth cold, cramped, and with minimal chance of affecting your personal outcome. IMHO, the odds of hitting a nightfighter from a tail gun, before catching a 20mm cannon shell, has to be bad. Lancasters did not, and could not, have ball turrets to help, either, not without giving up half their bomb bay volume. RAF crewmen were told they would know if a night fighter had spotted them by the bullets coming up through the cockpit floor. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/104 "2015-05-12T19:18:53Z")
The tail gunner was in a turret, and there was a dorsal turret. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/105 "2015-05-12T19:26:59Z")
German night fighters would approach from underneath, where the Lancaster was most blind, to get their upward-pointing “jazz music” guns aimed. A top-turret gunner couldn’t help. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/106 "2015-05-12T19:33:49Z")
I’m trying to remember if the night fighter of Len Deighton’s Bomber was British or German. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/107 "2015-05-12T20:11:09Z")
I would think the Infantry would be pretty bad. After all, most of the people who are killed in the army are in the Infantry. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/108 "2015-05-12T20:21:40Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I’m trying to remember if the night fighter of Len Deighton’s Bomber was British or German. German. The book is about a Lancaster raid in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/109 "2015-05-13T02:43:25Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > German. The book is about a Lancaster raid in Germany. Yes, 🙂 but I thought there was a British aircraft that takes out the German before it hits the protagonists. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2015, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/110 "2015-05-13T04:49:54Z")
Wings of Freedom is at my local airport at the moment, those turrets look like bad news from any angle. Bombsight station looks just as bad ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/111 "2015-05-14T03:50:32Z")
The guy hitting the beach with the biggest gun. Instantly the prime target with no cover or chance to dig in before coming under well-entrenched fire. That’s for “life expectancy in seconds” worst. I don’t care to try to image the biggest horror a person could encounter, so no entry for “Can’t Un-See”. ---
**Author:** ![Vaevictis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f04885/32.png) [@Vaevictis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaevictis)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/112 "2015-05-15T15:06:58Z")
I heard somewhere that merchant marine casualty rates were very high. A quick search turned up this: Service Number serving War Dead Percent Ratio Merchant Marine 243,000\* 9,521\*\* 3.90% 1 in 26 Marines 669,108 19,733 2.94% 1 in 34 Army 11,268,000 234,874 2.08% 1 in 48 Navy 4,183,466 36,958 0.88% 1 in 114 Coast Guard 242,093 574 0.24% 1 in 421 Total 16,576,667 295,790 1.78% 1 in 56 > **[American Merchant Marine Casualties](http://www.usmm.org/casualty.html)** > > American Merchant Marine casualties before Pearl Harbor, SS John Harvey explodes in Bari, Italy, SS Jean Nicolet So that might be something to think about if considering which branch of service was the riskiest. I don’t know, however, what would be the riskiest of the riskiest jobs for a mariner. ---
**Author:** ![Vaevictis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f04885/32.png) [@Vaevictis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaevictis)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/113 "2015-05-15T15:13:45Z")
OK, found a better source – quotes 1 in 29 casualty rate for WWII from the 2000 House Congressional Record. > **[Congressional Record, V. 146, Pt. 12, July 27, 2000 to September 13 2000](https://books.google.com/books?id=vLg4iJR0J9kC&pg=PA17747&lpg=PA17747&dq=merchant%2Bmarine%2Bwwii%2Bcasualty%2Bpercentage&source=bl&ots=-KhAKR6kHb&sig=yVTjdwtqryqzKWpnMlwh9OfiCkU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6wtWVbPCE4PjsAWAloHIBg&ved=0CCMQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=merchant%20marine%20wwii%20casualty%20percentage&f=false)** > > The Congressional Record contains the proceedings and debates of each Congressional session in the House of Representatives and the Senate. Arranged in calendar order, each volume includes the exact text of everything that was said and includes... Interesting thing is that guys in the merchant marine were all civilians. I presume a lot of those killed died when their ship was sunk. That has to be an awful way to go. Would these guys count as fighting soldiers? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/114 "2015-05-16T01:18:57Z")
My w.a.g. is that the Army, Navy and Marines presumably had X number of non-front line servicemen whose relative safety lowered the overall casualty rate. While the merchant marine consisted overwhelmingly of active duty sailors, and when a ship was sunk it took it’s toll. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/115 "2015-05-16T01:25:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > At the Battle of Stalingrad several western sources suggest that Soviet troops were being sent to the front in pairs, with one gun per pair… Interesting. Was there an expectation that a large number of German weapons would be captured and available for troops, or were they more or less waiting for a comrade to fall in order to take their gun? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/116 "2015-05-16T01:34:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > This is undoubtedly true, but is not far removed, logically speaking, from saying that a Lexus sedan isn’t a very good car because if you’re ever asked to race it in the Daytona 500 you’ll probably lose… Good point. By comparison, a 9mm Glock pistol is a great gun to carry for personal protection around town, but it would be a terrible choice as a primary infantry weapon. Crap accuracy beyond short range, marginal stopping power against body armor, and a relatively small magazine mean you’re likely to get pulverized by goons with AK-47’s or whatever sensible infantry weapon your opponent is using. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887/117 "2015-05-16T01:35:39Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Interesting. Was there an expectation that a large number of German weapons would be captured and available for troops, or were they more or less waiting for a comrade to fall in order to take their gun? I may have already posted that in the first World War, the second wave of Russians were unarmed, and instructed to pick up weapons from the fallen. This was not good for morale. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/worst-possible-combat-role-in-wwii/718887.md?page=5)