No, this government lies to the people. Just pay attention for a week. Fact check, you will find lies and distortions about material issues.
Practically everything said in public by the administration about the latest tax cut proposal is deliberately misleading.
And this is hardly an abberation. Lies from the administration about their policies are routine. Anyone who thinks this administration is trustworthy is simply not paying attention.
Catchy quote aside, civilization itself is a tradeoff of freedom for security, is it not?
Now you’re talking.
Is this a new thing? They hate for some very good reasons, you know (as well as some bad ones). Maybe we should try remove the planks from our own eyes and all that.
So the fear mongering works. Do you lay awake in terror that Saddam is going to send an ICBM at your house at any moment? Exactly how do you think Hussein can hurt us, especially since he clearly does not have WMD’s?
Do you live in an alternate universe where Florida’s electoral votes were not stolen from their rightful owner by a rigged supreme court?
Nice cop-out when you have no rebuttal. What did I say about the HSA that isn’t true?
Diog:
Their recent successes are very new. I’m all for removing the planks from our eyes, and dealing with the problem. We need to exterminate these terrorists and those that support them.
It’s not clear at all that he doesn’t since he kicked out the inspectors who were supposed to make it clear. Saddam has the capablility of destabilizing the region. Again. And, he could hurt me through terror attacks. You don’t need an ICBM. I doubt he would attack our country directly but our borders are porous, and weapons could be smuggled in if he wanted to. Planes can be hijacked. Our people and military abroad could be attacked. The guy is dangerous and he’s in charge of a large country with lots of resources at his disposal.
Apparently we inhabit seperate universes. I recall no counts that showed Gore to be the winner including the final count of the FL. vote done after the election.
The entire thing was false. You’re simply asserting opinion. That whole thing about the government having carte blanche for example.
Goog god, don’t let Libertarian hear you say that!!
Seriously, I think that’s a pretty pessimistic attitude. Would you, personally, be willing to live under fascism, if it guaranteed your physical safety?
I think we’re going in that direction right now.
You’ve got a good point here, but don’t go thinking that previous administrations didn’t lie to the people.
Course I would not want fascism in exchange for physical safety, and I think we’re a long way from it.
But we give our representatives mixed messages. We say PROTECT US PROTECT US HOW COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED. And in the next breath we say FASCISM FASCISM THE GESTAPO IS ON OUR HEELS.
I agree with some of the concerns about civil liberties, but I think the rhetoric is way too heated.
Also, I hate the “homeland security” moniker.
Diogenes, there are people on the right who worry about the kinds of things that were put in that Homeland Security bill, and others who know that this Iraq war is a crock (see this week’s Economic Beat column in Barron’s for an example of this) but as far as I can tell they don’t hang out here on the SDMB.
There are right-wing supporters of democracy around, but not on this board. Here, far as I can tell, if a Republican said it, they believe it, and that settles it.
What freedoms have >>>>I<<<< given up? I never had the freedom to take a dangerous item on an airplane; I never had the freedom to park a vehicle with explosives in front of a federal building, mosque, or synagogue; and I do not need a student visa to get a pilot’s certificate in another country.
You were free from unwarranted search and seizure. You were free from having your phone tapped. You were free from having your computer files data based. You were free to call your attorney. You were free to go if you were not charged with a crime.
It’s about time you got it!!! Thats right if you don’t help with our war on terror we will stop your ass, or cut you off from the rest of the world or screw you any way we can because we have the power the might and the money and fucking with us well it’s just not worth it. This is how you stop terrorism. I would like to give Diogenes the Cynic a boxing lesson and teach him the art of counter punching. Maybe he might learn something.
Lies from previous administration were not on anywhere near the scale and frequency as the current one. But in any case, it’s not germain. The question is whether or not it is wise to take anything the administration says as fact without double checking it. Clearly, it is not wise to do so.
How come if conservatives are fearful of government they are laughed off as being paranoid hicks, but if Democrats are fearful they are treated as defenders of freedom?
These are concerns many conservatives have waved around for years only to be seen as being anti-government militia nuts. Oh… but now that Republican control all branches of government it is fashionable to be ant-government, eh?
Oh, but by the way could you please give some specific examples of how the law has changed to effect you and I, rather than throw around general accusations?
Helen Thomas is an idiot.
Worst president ever would prolly be Harding.
Not really. 9/11 was just a lucky shot for them. They knew that the hijacking of an aircraft to use a a bomb was a one shot deal, so they trained their teams and all went at once.
4 teams, total. The entirety of manpower that they could use for a mission of that sort was 4 teams. This is not some big scary monster of a terrorist organization, They had 20 people. And, if the reports we’ve had a true, most of them didn’t even know that they were going on a suicide mission.
Now, if 9/11 had been followed up by another major action in a few months I’d be saying something different now. But in retrospect, it’s clear that Osama’s talent pool just aint that big. He pretty much shot is wad on 9/11. And most of the damage done that day was the result of luck.
If the towers had not fallen 9/11 would be remembered as a big day for terror, but not as the world-defining event we see it as now. It would have been hundreds dead, perhaps more than 1000 dead, but the real significance of 9/11 was the way it left a permanant mark on NYC. If they had not done that, then it would not have been as traumatic.
And yet, the fact that they felled the towers was unplanned. For them it was a lucky break rather and a planned occurrance. In fact, they were aparently believed that the airplane impact would knock the buildings over, which was not going to happen.
Does anyone remember that there was actually a truck bomb at the base of tower 2 back in the 90’s? It did little damage.
One lucky break, and suddenly the background noise of terrorist bombings (what 2 or three major bombs a year?) appear to be an actual threat to our way of life.
Well it ain’t.
We had been living with terrorism for years without much worry. (how many embassies bombed?) 9/11 changed nothing but our perception. The threat is bigger than we thought back then, but it’s quite a bit smaller than we seem to think now.
And the primary reason we think the threat is so large is because of the way the White House keeps hyping the threat. How many bogus terror alerts have their been since 9/11? Did anyone else notice how the warnings are carefully timed to blot out news unfavorible to the administration?
Terrorism didn’t start on 9/11. It didn’t get worse on 9/11, the bad guys just had a lucky day.
Oh, come on! On their very worst day, no Democratic admin has EVER passed anything as fascist as the Homeland Security Act.
The Homeland Security Act should scare the pee out of conservatives as well as liberals, because it’s value-neutral – it creates a mechanism that can be used to make enemies of all political persuasions disappear. Republicans HAVE been known to lose the White House, y’know.
Dubya may not use it this way – and hey, if he DID how would we know – but it represents an ever-present temptation to evil bastards of all parties and ideologies whenever they get into the White House.
The Homeland Security Act alone makes Bush a solid qualifier for Worst. President.Ever.
Wow, I haven’t seen such irrational, unfetered hatred and distrust of a President since, well, Clinton.
You remember Clinton, he “stole” the election with his lies of a middle class tax cut, then was set up for the second one by his liberal cronies in Hollywood and the Media.
He was constantly rushing us off to war for his own pet projects, even against popular opinion.
He was dismantling the constitution and creating a police state under the guise of “protection”.
He illegally searched, detained and even killed people based on nothing more than then race and religion.
But of course, all that wasn’t true with Clinton, but it is for Bush, right?
Worst President. My history books usually said Grant. He was a war hero and an honest man, but his administration was the most corrupt that we know of. His appointments were friends and contributors who later tried to rob the nation blind. I mean to the extent of trying to corner the market on gold. Not only that, but Grant was also not a politician, and his precidency showed exactly how that’s usually a bad thing.
Nah, forget that. Jackson. Definately Jackson. The Supreme Court handed down a ruling that said the State of Georgia had no right to take land from the Cherokee Nation. Jackson said, essentially, “fine, then let the Supreme Court enforce it”. This eventually lead the Trail of Tears, and the policy of removing Native Americans from their lands. Nothing that Bush could do would ever even come close to this.
Imprisoning the Japanese-Americans during WWII?
There have been several real ones as well, at least in Europe. There are still nasty people out there. The fact that Bush uses this to his (unscrupulous) advantage doesn’t negate that.
We’re too close in time to fairly judge recent Presidents as possibles on the worst list, althought they probably aren’t.
Harding was named, and certainly deserves additional mention. His administration was by far the most corrupt of any before or since. Also noteworthy were the reports of the circumstances of Harding’s death which were mysterious, until it became an open secret his widow was looking for letters to destroy he may have sent to female acquaintances.
The two men following Harding will make some people’s worst list. Coolidge did little (and said even less) and Hoover’s stated economic goal of “a chicken in every pot” promptly turned into the Great Depression, followed by what most believe was exceedingly ineffective remedies.