Worst retcons

[TBG]

@Barkis_is_Willin

Professor X, in wheelchair, also shows up in the after-the-credits scene in The Wolverine.

Leading directly into DOFP.

BTW, the movies never addressed it, but in the comics the prof moved into a clone body, went off to have space adventures with the Starjammers, then came back to earth to lead the X-men again, where he was promptly in an accident that crippled his new body. Just in time for the new X-men #1 launch! I think I still have a copy or 50, anyone need a bird cage liner?

@TYphoonSignal8

That one made me mad. It was utterly unnecessary and entirely cocked-up a brilliant premise. Aliens?! You douches.

I seem to be one of the few people who liked Batman v Superman. But I was disappointed that it couldn’t incorporate the ending to the Dark Knight trilogy (especially as Nolan left that open ,with the keys to the wonderful toys handed over to “Robin”). How happy I was, as a long-time “Batman” reader, to see Bruce Wayne actually get a peaceful ending to his career as a tortured vigilante, putting a full stop to the violent expression of the trauma of seeing his parents murdered. And how delightful was it that Alfred saw that too, and could stop worrying about his friend, the haunted boy he brought up.

In that regard, an aged and tired Bruce Wayne who never retired with Selina Kyle, appearing in the DC superhero movies as Batman, is a retcon and one for sentimental reasons I am unhappy with.

The current DC movie series has nothing to do with the Nolan Batman, it’s not really a retcon any more than Superman not having a kid or any of that Superman Returns nonsense.

[Quercus]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

No, that part would work just fine. The problem would come in when you still have every Jedi other than Qui-Gon Jinn saying “eh, no, we think it’s a bad idea.”

@Pantastic

There’s no problem at all. They use the force to sense that he’s got strong potential (the same thing as a high midochlorian count) or just take Qui-Gon’s word that he felt it, and have the EXACT SAME information without adding midochlorians to the mix. They can still consider it a bad idea for the EXACT SAME REASONS they did in the movie.

Midochlorians are an awful retcon, and there’s really no defense of them being added.

Pantastic is right. There’s zero need for midichlorians when the the same issue could be solved by having Qui-Gon say “You can all sense it: Anakin has incredible potential with the Force”. Yoda grudgingly admits “Yes, strong in the Force the child is”, adding “but much fear, much anger there is, also. Too much fear and anger.”

With half an hour of thought and the bare minimum of cleverness you could even have Yoda make a prophesy about the child’s future if he was trained, one that sounds bad but is just ambiguous enough that the audience (who knows his ultimate fate) can appreciate it. (something about this child will lead to much destruction, and even the fall of the galactic government, or something. I don’t have half an hour or any cleverness right now).

@Andy_L

In Star Wars (as I recall), Obi-Wan offers to teach Han some Force techniques, which certainly suggests that everyone can use the Force to some extent or another (it also raises questions about how a child can be too old to safely learn Force techniques).

I’d suggest a (hopefully not the worst) explanation: that Han in fact is fairly strong with the Force (great pilot, gets 'bad feeling’s about things, and, oh, yeah his kid ends up with some pretty strong Force mojo). Obi Wan, having secretly taken a blood sample from Han, sent it off to the lab, and gotten the midichlorian count back, realizes this and that’s why he offers to teach Han.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@Quercus

Pantastic is right. There’s zero need for midichlorians when the the same issue could be solved by having Qui-Gon say “You can all sense it: Anakin has incredible potential with the Force”. Yoda grudgingly admits “Yes, strong in the Force the child is”, adding “but much fear, much anger there is, also. Too much fear and anger.”

But that’s what I dislike: sure, let’s say Yoda can sense the kid’s potential, and can also sense that there’s ‘too much fear and anger’ in the kid – and is saying no, because he weighs one thing he feels over the other thing that he also feels.

And so Qui-Gon can likewise sense the kid’s potential, and – uh, doesn’t sense that there’s too much fear and anger? Or does sense what Yoda does, but – says he weighs the other thing he feels more heavily than folks who outrank him do?

And, what, that makes Yoda relent?

If he’s just weighing a feeling against a feeling, it seems narratively weak for him to win out over superiors who likewise just weighed a feeling against a feeling to reach the opposite conclusion – but if all they have is a feeling, and he can slap a cold hard fact down on the table right there, well, that’s a different conversation. No, I know we don’t usually start training kids this late in life, but I’m not figuratively saying you can sense this boy’s potential is off the charts; I’m literally pulling out a chart, with a sticky note on top where I ran out of room. You feel he has great potential, but feel he has too much fear and anger; I feel he has a manageable amount of fear and anger, and [del]feel[/del] can prove he has a higher midichlorian count than you did.

[Maus_Magill]

@MrAtoz

[QUOTE=wevets ]
What I hate about the prequels is that it reveals that instead of Obi-Wan dressing in desert robes convenient to his hot and dusty environment on Tatooine, he’s instead dressed in what appears to have been the fracking uniform of the Jedi Knights for twenty years! Before they were hunted down and killed by the despotic omnipresent Empire, that was how all Jedi Knights dressed.

The really weird part is that Uncle Owen dressed almost exactly the same way, and nobody ever asked why he was doing Jedi Knight cosplay. Of course, that’s because he wasn’t. He was dressed for the hot desert environment that he lived in, just like Ben was.

I very much agree with you–the transformation of Ben Kenobi’s practical desert robes into the Official Jedi Uniform is a small thing, but I find it deeply irritating.
[/QUOTE]

Thank you. I thought I was the only one.

[Gyrate]

@Don_Draper

The Doctor constructed his own time machine, which his grand-daughter dubbed a “TARDIS.” They are unwillingly separated from their people and long to return to their homeworld due to being exiled.

Wait no, the Doctor’s people (known as Time Lords) are a godlike race of beings who all drive around in TARDISes. The Doctor stole a TARDIS and went gallivanting around the universe because he was bored with life on his homeworld. This was a grave crime, as Time Lords live by a strict code of non-interference.

EXCEPT when the Time Lords do wish to interfere in universal affairs, for which they have an agent – the Doctor – to do their bidding (even if he’s a reluctant agent.)

But then again…Time Lord society is a pompous, bloated bunch of self-satisfied buffoons who are completely out of touch with universal affairs. For that matter, the Doctor himself barely scraped through the Time Lord Academy, graduating in the bottom third of his class.

Wait, no! The Doctor is not just a Time Lord, far more than that! In fact, he’s one of the PREMIERE Time Lords…peer to Omega and Rassilon. He left Gallifrey in order to hide one of the Time Lord’s deadliest weapons – the Hand of Omega – and secreted it in the vicinity of Coal Hill School, circa 1963.

Which is weird, because…he’s half-human, on his mother’s side.

And then he’s the last of the Time Lords – the rest of his people and his homeworld were wiped out in a universal war with the Daleks.* He’s now a lonely God, known and feared throughout the universe for his might.

Well, not THAT lonely. The Master survived, and oh yeah…Gallifrey and all the Time Lords survived. They’re just stuck in a perpetual timeloop.

Oh did we say perpetual timeloop? We meant they were shunted off through a CVE to an E-space universe. Same difference though, they’re still lost forever, and the Doctor will never be able to communicate with them again.

Except through the Crack in Time.

And oh yeah…when he goes back and visits Gallifrey.

But all the Daleks were trapped or destroyed in the Time War.

Except for that one.

And those.

Oh, and those.

And those, and those. And this entire planet full of them, and this other planet, and that planet, and all those spaceships, and…

[oft_wears_hats]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

But that’s what I dislike: sure, let’s say Yoda can sense the kid’s potential, and can also sense that there’s ‘too much fear and anger’ in the kid – and is saying no, because he weighs one thing he feels over the other thing that he also feels.

And so Qui-Gon can likewise sense the kid’s potential, and – uh, doesn’t sense that there’s too much fear and anger? Or does sense what Yoda does, but – says he weighs the other thing he feels more heavily than folks who outrank him do?

And, what, that makes Yoda relent?

If he’s just weighing a feeling against a feeling, it seems narratively weak for him to win out over superiors who likewise just weighed a feeling against a feeling to reach the opposite conclusion – but if all they have is a feeling, and he can slap a cold hard fact down on the table right there, well, that’s a different conversation. No, I know we don’t usually start training kids this late in life, but I’m not figuratively saying you can sense this boy’s potential is off the charts; I’m literally pulling out a chart, with a sticky note on top where I ran out of room. You feel he has great potential, but feel he has too much fear and anger; I feel he has a manageable amount of fear and anger, and [del]feel[/del] can prove he has a higher midichlorian count than you did.

They could have solved this by actually stating the terms of the prophecy. If the prophecy contained enough identifiers that could be plausibly be linked to Anakin, then that’s how Yoda and the rest of the Jedi Council gets convinced. Some garbage about the Chosen One being one “who was born in chains”, “who knows not their father”, and “who wins a crucial contest” would have done it.

There were ways to navigate this narrative challenge without the midichlorian nonsense. Lucas simply didn’t think of them, or elected not to use them.

[Barkis_is_Willin]

I don’t want to hijack too much, but what exactly did Yoda want to do with Anakin? Just turn him loose? Seems a foolish thing to do with such a powerful kid.

[Quercus]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

But that’s what I dislike: sure, let’s say Yoda can sense the kid’s potential, and can also sense that there’s ‘too much fear and anger’ in the kid – and is saying no, because he weighs one thing he feels over the other thing that he also feels.

And so Qui-Gon can likewise sense the kid’s potential, and – uh, doesn’t sense that there’s too much fear and anger? Or does sense what Yoda does, but – says he weighs the other thing he feels more heavily than folks who outrank him do?

And, what, that makes Yoda relent?

If he’s just weighing a feeling against a feeling, it seems narratively weak for him to win out over superiors who likewise just weighed a feeling against a feeling to reach the opposite conclusion – but if all they have is a feeling, and he can slap a cold hard fact down on the table right there, well, that’s a different conversation. No, I know we don’t usually start training kids this late in life, but I’m not figuratively saying you can sense this boy’s potential is off the charts; I’m literally pulling out a chart, with a sticky note on top where I ran out of room. You feel he has great potential, but feel he has too much fear and anger; I feel he has a manageable amount of fear and anger, and [del]feel[/del] can prove he has a higher midichlorian count than you did.

I don’t see how the narrative is that different: in both cases it’s Yoda saying “Yes, he has potential, but the risks are too great” and Qui-Gon is saying “No, the risks aren’t that big”. It’s the same argument even if they agree exactly what the potential is to seven decimal places.

Is it that you like the addition of midichlorians because it adds to the anti-technology theme in the movies? (Jedis are always supposed to trust their feelings over targeting computers, or even their eyes)

[oft_wears_hats]

@Barkis_is_Willin

I don’t want to hijack too much, but what exactly did Yoda want to do with Anakin? Just turn him loose? Seems a foolish thing to do with such a powerful kid.

Presumably, the would simply refrain from teaching Anakin how to harness his Force potential and he would go live a normal life. Granted, Palpatine would have probably snatched him up and trained him, but the Jedi Council didn’t know that was a risk. Anakin was a far cry from Rey, who was actively using Force powers with little to no instruction. Without training from the Jedis or Palpatine, Anakin probably wouldn’t have gotten sufficiently in touch with the Force to be able to fall to the Dark Side.

[Barkis_is_Willin]

@oft_wears_hats

Presumably, the would simply refrain from teaching Anakin how to harness his Force potential and he would go live a normal life. Granted, Palpatine would have probably snatched him up and trained him, but the Jedi Council didn’t know that was a risk. Anakin was a far cry from Rey, who was actively using Force powers with little to no instruction. Without training from the Jedis or Palpatine, Anakin probably wouldn’t have gotten sufficiently in touch with the Force to be able to fall to the Dark Side.

They should have known there was some risk of the Sith finding him seeing as how they had just encountered Darth Maul, who witnessed the Jedi taking Anakin. I don’t remember why Maul was on Tatooine in the first place, actually. So, if Yoda didn’t want to actively train Anakin, he would have at least had to keep him under constant surveillance.

Bottom line, I think they should have done away with the prophecy and the “too old to begin training” thing in the first place, along with the stupid midichlorians. If Yoda sensed fear and anger, that’s enough of a reason to object right there.

[phreesh]

@Pantastic

There’s no problem at all. They use the force to sense that he’s got strong potential (the same thing as a high midochlorian count) or just take Qui-Gon’s word that he felt it, and have the EXACT SAME information without adding midochlorians to the mix. They can still consider it a bad idea for the EXACT SAME REASONS they did in the movie.

Midochlorians are an awful retcon, and there’s really no defense of them being added.

I’m not a massive fanboy for SF, but I appreciate a good movie and this is always the first thing that springs to mind. In the first three Star Wars, Lucas creates this fascinating spiritual order in opposition to all the whiz bang technology. In the end, it’s this adherence to spirituality and faith that saves the day.

And then the exact same author turns this thought-provoking notion on its head and introduces a scientific underpinning to the whole thing.

A real tragedy.

[Robot_Arm]

@MrAtoz

The really weird part is that Uncle Owen dressed almost exactly the same way, and nobody ever asked why he was doing Jedi Knight cosplay. Of course, that’s because he wasn’t. He was dressed for the hot desert environment that he lived in, just like Ben was.

I very much agree with you–the transformation of Ben Kenobi’s practical desert robes into the Official Jedi Uniform is a small thing, but I find it deeply irritating.

I think you’ve got it wrong. The robes are the traditional garb of the Jedi. When Obi-Wan is trying to figure out where to go into hiding, he picks a desert planet so he won’t have to get a new wardrobe. It only seems the other way around because you saw Episode IV first.

[magnusblitz]

@Barkis_is_Willin

Professor X pretty clearly exploded to pieces in X-Men: The Last Stand. And sure, his consciousness could be transferred to a new body. But in future movies, even set in the future, there he is, in his old Patrick Stewart body. Wheelchair and all. As far as I know, there’s no explanation for how they put him back together.

Remember at the end of The Last Stand when Moira is taking care of a brain-dead patient, and then we hear Xavier speak, demonstrating that he placed his consciousness into a new body?

The new body is that of his twin brother, I shit you not.